TVNZ to go HD in Jul 2008

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allstarnz

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#16185 27-Sep-2007 23:16

Well according to Throng anyhow, who say they got it directly from TVNZ (I don't doubt their sources, just stating where it came from)

Article here

This is great news. Sadly it's a bit slower than i'd hoped for, but considering DVB-T SD isn't meant to be here till about April, I suppose it's pretty good.

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#88475 28-Sep-2007 10:03

more info from TVNZ (thanks to Timbosan)

timbosan

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#88476 28-Sep-2007 10:15

Only too glad to help ;-)

I poersonally think it is great news, and HOPEFULLY will mean we will have 3 HD channels next year (2 TVNZ and Prime), and means we wont have this stupid situation of having overseas programs that are shot in HD shown here in SD.

I watched a HD version of a Top Gear episode the other day (the North Pole one, very very funny) and the difference is amazing.

Plus, by now with the UK and US showing large amount of HD, I would hope most overseas shows broadcast here are in HD, not just the 'prime time' ones that the TVNZ article refers to.....

sbiddle

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#88478 28-Sep-2007 10:28

I also hope some of the space Freeview channels are used for Olympics coverage. The usual one channel of coverage we get here makes trying to follow things very hard. Even when I was in South Africa in 2002 the Commonwealth Games were broadcast on 5 channels with 1 being replays, 1 being a live feed of various sports (similair to the typical feed we get here) and 3 being live feeds of individual events.

cyril7

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#88479 28-Sep-2007 10:32

I posted the following comments on Tims blog, but thought I would post them here as well.

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DVB-T maxs out at around 23Mb/s of usable throughput (ie post FEC) it all depends on what modulation and number of cofdm carriers (2k or 8k), but 23Mb/s is full chat. This compares to around 30Mb/s usable post FEC bitrate on the current DVB-S muxs that FreeView and Sky uses. I expect Sky will use DVB-S2 when it puts a HD mux in, this would render around 42-45Mb/s out of the same transponder bandwidth as the currrent muxs.

So 23Mb/s for two 720p streams and a couple of 576i ones is a bit tight I think. Interesting that they have gone for 720p, makes sense really as all current domestic HD displays are panel displays that are progressive, and the biggest weakpoint of domestic displays is the deinterlacer. So as most HD material that broadcasters produce and get is 1080i. Having the broadcaster do the deinterlacing and scaling to the most common 720 using a broadcast quality deinterlacer/scaler makes good sense and removes major limitation between cheaper and more expensive panels displays. The BBC have made a lot of this aspect of recent times.

I would expect with mpeg4 a couple of 720p streams would want 8-10Mb/s each, doesnt leave much room for the two SD channels.

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Cyril

lchiu7

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#88482 28-Sep-2007 11:09

timbosan: Only too glad to help ;-)

I poersonally think it is great news, and HOPEFULLY will mean we will have 3 HD channels next year (2 TVNZ and Prime), and means we wont have this stupid situation of having overseas programs that are shot in HD shown here in SD.

I watched a HD version of a Top Gear episode the other day (the North Pole one, very very funny) and the difference is amazing.

Plus, by now with the UK and US showing large amount of HD, I would hope most overseas shows broadcast here are in HD, not just the 'prime time' ones that the TVNZ article refers to.....

I think the 50% 80% mix on TV1 and TV2 reflects the source of the programming. TV1 has most of the local content and it will take time for TVNZ to move all their production facilities to HD as well as their third party programme providers. TV2 shows mainly US and some UK programming that are produced in HD so it's easier for them.

I wonder if the news will be in HD?

And what about TV3 now?

Larry

Staying in Wellington. Check out my AirBnB in the Wellington CBD. https://www.airbnb.co.nz/h/wellycbd PM me and mention GZ to get a 15% discount and no AirBnB charges.

openmedia

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#88483 28-Sep-2007 11:11

cyril7: I posted the following comments on Tims blog, but thought I would post them here as well.

-------
DVB-T maxs out at around 23Mb/s of usable throughput (ie post FEC) it all depends on what modulation and number of cofdm carriers (2k or 8k), but 23Mb/s is full chat. This compares to around 30Mb/s usable post FEC bitrate on the current DVB-S muxs that FreeView and Sky uses. I expect Sky will use DVB-S2 when it puts a HD mux in, this would render around 42-45Mb/s out of the same transponder bandwidth as the currrent muxs.

So 23Mb/s for two 720p streams and a couple of 576i ones is a bit tight I think. Interesting that they have gone for 720p, makes sense really as all current domestic HD displays are panel displays that are progressive, and the biggest weakpoint of domestic displays is the deinterlacer. So as most HD material that broadcasters produce and get is 1080i. Having the broadcaster do the deinterlacing and scaling to the most common 720 using a broadcast quality deinterlacer/scaler makes good sense and removes major limitation between cheaper and more expensive panels displays. The BBC have made a lot of this aspect of recent times.

I would expect with mpeg4 a couple of 720p streams would want 8-10Mb/s each, doesnt leave much room for the two SD channels.

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Cyril

Well I was working to the same maths. The channels will be
* TV One HD
* TV 2 HD
* TVNZ 6 SD
* TVNZ 7 SD
* TVNZ Sport Extra SD

Now Sport Extra isn't 24/7 so they can juggle the bandwidth there

Plus SD H264 would probably be under 2Mbit, and HD 720p 8-10.

Should just fit in their Single DVB-T multiplex

Now I wonder how the other two DVB-T multiplexes will be utilised.

Generally known online as OpenMedia, now working for Red Hat APAC as a Technology Evangelist and Portfolio Architect. Still playing with MythTV and digital media on the side.

allstarnz

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#88487 28-Sep-2007 11:41

hmm, that all makes sense. I forgot that it was using H.246 compression. If that is even more superior than h264, then those numbers should be good enough to handle those channels on a single multiplexer. With h264, I think about 1/4 to 1/5 of the MPEG2 bandwidth is needed to make it comparable quality. This measure is by no means scientific, merely just on what i have seen from stuff i've played with.

I'm not sure if I like this idea of upscaling, if it isn't true HD, put it in SD for goodness sake.

I agree with sbiddle, i hope that TVNZ use Freeview properly to get better coverage of the Olympics. There is just too much stuff to do justice to it on one channel. I guess they could use TV One, TVNZ Sport Extra + others. It'd be great to see full and live coverage of some of the niche sports.

Like has been mentioned, I wonder what Sky and Canwest's response will be. Sky are moving the slowest (lowest bitrate and little WS coverage), so only time will tell I guess.

:edit: Does anyone know whether h246 is the same or different than h264?

In regard to the SD channels, I reckon you could easily get away with 2mb/s, perhaps even 1.5. Baring in mind the DVB-S channels are using about 6.3mb/s with MPEG2

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cyril7

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#88489 28-Sep-2007 11:59

Mpeg4 Part10 (H.264 AVC) is what professional broadcasters use, dunno what h.246 is.

Cyril

timbosan

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#88501 28-Sep-2007 12:51

Cyril, many thanks for that, knew I could count on you for an answer!

As for the 720 issue, it is exactly that, most panels even today are 720 or 768, very few are 1080, and by targeting this resolution these panels can display the signal natively. Plus, as sbiddle says on my blog, the bandwidth needed to transmit 2 channels of 1920x1080p would be massive, you need at least a 50" display to see/appriciate the difference, and then you need the content to originate in 1080p format.

Anyways, all of this is miles better than the current 576i we have today! Cannot wait!

And yes, there will be yet another STB to buy, but no-one is being forced to upgrade, the current DVB-S solution will suit a lot of people, and only those HD capable sets will benefit. Of course, I am guessing all geekzone members to be first in the line to buy the new decoders..... wonder how long before they appear on trademe.......

Which reminds me, I already have seen 1 DBV-T HD STB on trademe, and in a shop is Henderson (the one next to the Warehouse Stationary) they sell a Philips STB that has a DVB-T tuner and a 400GB HDD in them, very nice..... bit ahead of time but still nice...

cyril7

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#88503 28-Sep-2007 13:04

I dont believe that the philips one you saw support mpeg4, HN was flogging these up untill a couple of months ago, they are only mpeg2 capable.

On the note of 720p, its not just the 720 aspect, but the more important thing is the p. Pretty much Universally broadcasters do HD as 1080i, this is recognised by broadcasters as the "common image format", the use of 720p50 or 720p60 may well be taken up by broadcasters for sports, however 1080i is what most material is generated in and distributed as. However the ability of most domestic digital displays to successfully deinterlace a 1080i source (as they must as they are progressive by nature) is a real problem. Some do quite well at it, others not, a good deinterlacer costs a fair bit of money, professional ones more than your average german touring car, and even higher priced domestic displays struggle with deinterlacing 576i let alone 1080i. Therefore by moving the deinterlacing back to the broadcasters means that that aspect is not handled by the consumers display, this is very important.

Cyril

old3eyes

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#88509 28-Sep-2007 13:20

openmedia:

Well I was working to the same maths. The channels will be
* TV One HD
* TV 2 HD
* TVNZ 6 SD
* TVNZ 7 SD
* TVNZ Sport Extra SD

Now Sport Extra isn't 24/7 so they can juggle the bandwidth there

Plus SD H264 would probably be under 2Mbit, and HD 720p 8-10.

Should just fit in their Single DVB-T multiplex

Now I wonder how the other two DVB-T multiplexes will be utilised.

You've only consided TVNZ here. Don't forget about one or two Canwest HD channels. I suspect that they will have one on the air long before TVNZ..

Regards,

Old3eyes

lchiu7

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#88513 28-Sep-2007 14:00

cyril7: I dont believe that the philips one you saw support mpeg4, HN was flogging these up untill a couple of months ago, they are only mpeg2 capable.

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Cyril

I wonder if there will be PC capture card solutions available or are there any now that might work with this HD stream?

Love to be able to capture the HD stream

Larry

Staying in Wellington. Check out my AirBnB in the Wellington CBD. https://www.airbnb.co.nz/h/wellycbd PM me and mention GZ to get a 15% discount and no AirBnB charges.

sbiddle

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#88528 28-Sep-2007 15:07

lchiu7:
cyril7: I dont believe that the philips one you saw support mpeg4, HN was flogging these up untill a couple of months ago, they are only mpeg2 capable.

...
Cyril

I wonder if there will be PC capture card solutions available or are there any now that might work with this HD stream?

Love to be able to capture the HD stream

Larry

Virtually any PC based DVB-T card will work, even cheap models that are designed for existing mpeg2 streams.

The BBC had been running a DVB-T MPEG4 HD broadcast off their Crystal Palace transmitter in London which ended in July. There has been quite a bit of discussion about that with many people finding out that most DVB-T cards would work with appropiate software and codec since all the card is simple passing the DVB-T stream to the PC. To decode this however requires quite high CPU resources with something around a X2 4000+ (or similair spec from Intel) being about the bare minimum for a HD stream.

allstarnz

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#88529 28-Sep-2007 15:17

yeah, i understand existing DVB-T cards will work with our HD (and SD for that matter) streams. As I understand GB-PVR supports h264 already.

lchiu7

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#88531 28-Sep-2007 15:43

So something like a Hauppauge HVR-3000? Looks like I might have to upgrade my PC though since it's no where near a X2 4000 :-(

Staying in Wellington. Check out my AirBnB in the Wellington CBD. https://www.airbnb.co.nz/h/wellycbd PM me and mention GZ to get a 15% discount and no AirBnB charges.

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