Surround speakers

Forums › Home Theatre (including HTPC and EPG Collector) › Surround speakers - help

sheldybro

20 posts

Geek

#20170 15-Mar-2008 13:55

Hi everyone, I am after a bit of advice from all the experts i have seen posting on GZ - regarding what speakers to use for my home theatre.

My local HiFi store in Nelson keeps trying to push me toward the Bose Lifestyle System with the small speakers but i am unsure of this, I have seen a few posts advising against these but thought I would ask people here for their opinions. Plus, to me, the Bose just doesnt quite look like a home theatre system.

I like the look of the yamaha home theatre reciever - RX-V2700B, got the Yamaha brochure from the local home show, but I am unsure what to use for speakers with this unit.

Are in-wall or in-ceiling speakers any good? or should I be looking for speakers that just attach to the wall.

Any advise on room layout for speakers would also be appreciated.- the lounge room is 4m x 5m with the tv wall mounted at one end.

I havnt really got a budget, but i would like to try and keep under $3k if possible.

kind regards
Sheldon

tonyhughes

Hawkes Bay
8476 posts

Uber Geek

Retired Mod

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#116814 15-Mar-2008 14:07

Forget in wall speakers unless you have a higher budget to do it properly/nicely with decent gear.
Forget how the gear looks, think about the volumes you will be operating the gear at, and test out the speaker and amp combinations you are considering.
If the Bose sounds significantly better than the Yammy, then the answer is pretty easy.

I would tend to go with higher quality speakers for rear surrounds vs. bigger speakers.

Having said that, I have a very basic Pioneer + Wharfdale 5.1 setup, which cost $1600 total, and that suits my needs - movies sound great - music is very average.

cyril7

9058 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

Subscriber

#116840 15-Mar-2008 16:58

Avoid Bose at all cost, it is overpriced rubbish, dont buy it.

I personally prefer a decent set of floor standers upfront with a matching set of Bipoles (all drivers in phase) rears on the side walls 500-1000mm behind the listener. Personally i dont like centre speakers prefering a phantom, I know plenty of folks disagree and thats fine, its a personal preference of mine that gives in my view better performance on music heavy 5.1 material, not so good on dialog.

That said, I have installed a number of inwall and inceiling systems, and typically they dont have the decent stereo music performance of a good set of well imaged fronts, but they are excellent on 5.1 movie stuff, both disappearing into the environment as well as sounding good. There are provisos though, you must spend a good amount of time with the install. Ensure you contrain the volume of the cavity each speaker is in and attempt to match each speaker. This means creating a sealed box with in the wall or ceiling suitabley damping it etc. There is a theory that having a complete infinte baffle of a wall or ceiling space will create the near perfect infinte baffle speaker, however this rarely works out and you end up with a inefficent and boomy result. You must create a sealed cavity with a set volume, the volume can be quite large compared to common self standing speakers that means you can have good performance, but it must be sealed and set. This can be quite difficult on lower floor ceilings that are hung on rondo, but if its to work it must be done right.

As I said I prefer a set of floor standers with Bipole rears, your wife might not like the clutter.

Dont By Bose!

Cyril

Se7ensyns

133 posts

Master Geek

#116860 15-Mar-2008 20:49

I am no home theatre guru but have been on the lookout for new speakers as I need to downsize (missus request). I have a Pioneer VSX1016V and have just finally replaced my 12 year old wharefdales with some new wharfedale Pacific EvolutionII 10's for the fronts. These are big enough yet small enough for a lounge around the size of 4m squared. I am looking at new rears the pacevo 8's which are smaller again. Not sure if you are in Welly but LV Martisn currently have 50% off the PACEVEO's and I got my 10's for $749. Yamaha have good amps as do Onkyo if youa re going for the prosumer market. I rate Pioneer over Sony and teh Wharefdale speaker range are IMHO the best bang for buck going on my research and various reviews. Also on the Home theater front supposedly the Wharfedale RS10 setup is quite good

richms

28172 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#116864 15-Mar-2008 21:47

They are directing you to a bose system because of the profit on them.

The bose is not a home theater, it is a surround sound system. A home theater needs to image well between all 5 speakers, and there is no way that you can do that with in walls without being certain of the positioning, which can mean changing studs to suit which is not really easy if the place is already lined without major incontinence. moving a real speaker just 10cm can make a huge change, and you cant do that with in walls. You also get the same problem if you have wall mounted ones since you cant just move them to see the change so ou will end up with a compromise system.

As for the bose, Many people buy them and think they have a home theater, but really they have paid 10x too much for a set of computer speakers with a fancy looking region locked dvd player with an RF remote that means you cant use a universal one on it.

If you are having wife issues with getting a proper system, don't bother IMO, the bose is a waste of money and when you want to get a real one you will constantly be nagged about whats wrong with the one we have blah blah blah.

Bass comes from large speakers, and trying to redirect all the bass from all the channels to a single speaker that can barely go down to 50Hz just leads to an inferior music and movie experience.

Richard rich.ms

wmoore

510 posts

Ultimate Geek

#116869 15-Mar-2008 23:04

cyril7: Avoid Bose at all cost, it is overpriced rubbish, dont buy it.

Dont By Bose!

Cyril

As they say "No highs, no lows it must be bose"
or Bose stands for Built On Sh*tty Engineering .

Audition HT speakers from the likes of KEF, Mission, Jamo, Monitor audio etc.

"In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." -
-- Abraham lincoln

sheldybro

20 posts

Geek

#116896 16-Mar-2008 10:46

Thanks for all the replys

seems my concearns have been confirmed so will be stearing clear of the bose.

i was prefering to go with the in-wall or in-ceiling speakers because they were out of sight,
but i guess to get the right sound i have to compromise, so will be looking for some real speakers.

What about speaker placement?
Is there any minimum/maximum heights for mounting the speakers to the wall?

Centre speaker options? - our tv is mounted flush in the wall above the gas fireplace so is the
centre speaker best above or below the tv?

im unsure but i think i have read somewhere that you can flushmount normal speaker by building
them into the wall - would this work for a centre speaker? - as we are about to start building the
house there is plenty of time to allow for this?

i am based in Nelson, so there isnt really alot of choice when it comes to HiFi equipment, so will be
looking out of town to get what i need.

Cheers

richms

28172 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#116902 16-Mar-2008 12:13

Above a fireplace is usually slighly too high for a tv, since you want the 1/3rd point of the image at about eye height since thats the eye height of the actors typically.

Interior designers tent to place them like they are a painting with no regards to the ergonomics of watching them from a sofa or recliner. If its a particually large tv you will need to lean back to see it without neck strain.

The ideal speaker placement leaves the tweeter at about ear height, so that would be below the tv. This gives you the most direct path to your ears vs the reflections that will destroy the imaging.

Freestanding speakers are eqalized so they have a flat bass response with the narrow baffle on them. If you extend the baffle by mounting them in a wall the bass will go louder so somewhat boomy. It wont help you with more sub bass so its a negative all round.

Also there is the port position on the speaker, if its on the back, then no, you cant mount it in the wall, same for the bottom. Front firing ports will be less effected but there will still a considerable change to the bass with the presense of the wall. If you get a crappy no bass speaker like a bose one it will be less effected by it since there is no bass there to reflect off the wall.

Richard rich.ms

Samsung

Shop now on Samsung phones, tablets, TVs and more (affiliate link).

minimoke

750 posts

Ultimate Geek

#117151 17-Mar-2008 14:59

richms: .... there is no way that you can do that with in walls without being certain of the positioning, which can mean changing studs to suit which is not really easy if the place is already lined without major incontinence. moving a real speaker just 10cm can make a huge change, and you cant do that with in walls. .

Not sure I entirely agree. First up, I’ve put my rears in the ceiling and not disappointed. So far I’ve found rear channel is used for sound which is above you like helicopters and rain so there isn’t much problem with imaging. Concert DVDs bring an amphitheatre aspect with an audience above and behind me. Also a good tradeoff for the WAF - got to keep my Rogers as fronts – I wasn’t going to win freestanding rears. And fluked a Niles IR extender which fits behind the grill of my Niles in wall center. So pretty much got the WAF wireless look and pretty happy with the overall speaker set up.

richms

28172 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#117260 17-Mar-2008 23:37

The mains are the critcal ones. You will have being able to reposition them till they merged with the center ok so thats why it works. If they are all in walls, and you are stuck with the listening position where the interior designer put the sofa then chances are it will not be done with any concern for the audio performance of the room.

Richard rich.ms

cyril7

9058 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

Subscriber

#117267 18-Mar-2008 07:04

As richms says the mains are the important ones to get imaging, and in the wall they cannot be easily set. To get the main speakers imaging you normally need to pull them inot the room (away from the wall) and then carefully adjust front speaker distance and speaker to rear wall distance until a good stereo image emerges. This cannot be performed with inwall speakers.

For watching movies with a centre speaker to support imaging inwall speakers will kindof work, however if you were to play a movie with a great sound track (like moulan rouge) you would find a massive difference in sound presentation between a 5.1 system with poor imaging speakers and a 4.1 system with no centre and magnificent imaging due to correct front speaker placement.

Cyril