Article on NZ Herald misses the point on netbooks

Forums › Laptops and mobile computers › Article on NZ Herald misses the point on netbooks

freakalad

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#35892 16-Jun-2009 17:00

Small haulers: low-cost netbooks go head to head
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/technology/news/article.cfm?c_id=5&objectid=10578820&pnum=0

I don't know if this guy (Pat Pilcher) is six different kind of ignorant, or if he simply refuses to see the point.
Netbooks where NEVER INTENDED to fat clients, and as such, GNU/Linux is the PERFECT OS for them. In fact, if the Asus eeePC, the unit I'm STILL using quite happily, had on any OS other that a GNU/Linux, what is now the netbook phenomenon would NEVER have taken place.

Netbooks are windows onto the cloud (@ home or hosted), to be little more than a snazzy terminal, and considering the name, would've expected windows to be well-suited. But, as any techie knows, windows is not just a proverbial pane of glass in a frame (though IS "a pain in the @$$"), but comes encumbered with the wall & foundations with it.
Coughing up a couple hundred buck for a ill-suited OS on a system thats' supposed to be cheap as chips, is what's referred to as an OXYMORON.

The problem has always been that the Linux systems spun out by OEM was not what the customer expected, and had therefore had poor adoption. Users do not like to have their paradigm shifted, even if it is a better move.

But, none of this really comes as a big surprise from a publication that lacks both imagination or any original thought, following the PR rhetoric put forward by other similar publications; the opinions have been heavily weighed in favor of windows & mac, without actually stopping to consider the facts.

I guess you can't let the facts get in the way of a mediocre story...

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Hawkes Bay
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#225644 16-Jun-2009 17:06

Coughing up a couple hundred buck for a ill-suited OS on a system thats' supposed to be cheap as chips, is what's referred to as an OXYMORON.

What netbooks are there where Windows adds $200 to the price?

if the Asus eeePC, the unit I'm STILL using quite happily, had on any OS other that a GNU/Linux, what is now the netbook phenomenon would NEVER have taken place.

Really? So a $500 tiny laptop with similar usefulness to many users as a $3k - $4k ultraportable would just have failed? I think not.

(P.S. I like/run/use linux.)

zocster

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#225649 16-Jun-2009 17:34

I sure am waiting for android netbooks! 500bucks more or less NZ? hmm can't compete!

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Ragnor

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#225650 16-Jun-2009 17:39

Well that's an interesting rant but the fact of the matter is ~90% of new netbooks sold are running Windows because consumers are choosing the Windows variant and avoiding the Linux versions.

freakalad

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Master Geek

#225657 16-Jun-2009 17:50

Funny that you should mention that.

Quick search brings back this:

http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?ForumId=45&TopicId=10941

XP is not cheap, vista is highway robbery & 7 is going to be even dearer.

I wouldnt've had a qualm, if I was given the choice of NOT agreeing to the OEM's OS terms & condition & get my money back that it was marked up & buy more RAM. Storage is a secondary concern, and besides, I don't need more than, say, 4-8 GB; enough to load an OS, some apps & settings/home-partition.

Thus far, I've yet to find a single retailer that is willing or able to provide me a netbook without windows or any OS, despite some of the very same units being available with my choice of Ubuntu pre-loaded for a cheaper price (Dell springs to mind).

I've been asked many times before why I would rather use a netbook, as opposed to a "proper" laptop with better speck for nearly the same price.

For me, it's about the form-factor. I use mine to watch movies in bed, get my way into server in server rooms, and in cases where I would've otherwise not have brought a machine with, do quick web browsing, or loading a documentation on that I need to reference to, or a repair manual for my car.

All of this I would not have done if it was not for the form-factor.

I could've used a mobile phone to do all this, and in coming years that may very-well be the case (likely an android).

As it stands now, I can (& have) load the Android OS, Moblin (which is great! btw), or any of a number of linux OS's: Ubuntu, Kubuntu, eeeBuntu, Mint, etc, etc.

If I pay my dues to Redmond, as I have soooooo many times before, do you think for a minute that one moment I can load xp, then 2000, then vista, then 7 just for kicks, etc, etc?

I've tried & failed & had enough.

My netbook is an absolutely IDEAL testing system: quickly load, say, trixbox, onto the SSD or USB, do some voip testing, TOTALLY break the box, reboot & be back up again in no time at all.

The point is, that what's being missed by badly biased reporting, is that the use of netbooks in the niche they fill absolutely beautifully (as a "cloud-window"), is better catered to by a streamlined, tailored device, which a windows system cannot do.

These are supposed to be computing devices that buck the recession, and so far they've made a stellar effort, but such a trend is not sustainable when hamstrung with exorbitant licensing fees (remember, it's not just the OS you're paying for, but the office, as well as any other software you're loading on).

Then again....it could be me that's missing the point...

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freakalad

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#225660 16-Jun-2009 17:59

zocster : you can already download & do a simple build of android.
I've even located the source & instructions to build it for my eee 701, which is was not *really* designed for, but since I have such a robust little machine & OS, I have little to worry about.

I would recommend taking Moblin 2 for a test-drive too. It's oh-so pretty

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zocster

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#225662 16-Jun-2009 18:05

freakalad: zocster : you can already download & do a simple build of android.

I've even located the source & instructions to build it for my eee 701, which is was not *really* designed for, but since I have such a robust little machine & OS, I have little to worry about.

I would recommend taking Moblin 2 for a test-drive too. It's oh-so pretty

hmm interesting! I had it running on the jasjam for a wee while no phone function tho, just fancy phone OS .. was OK

Andy Ghozali Geekzone Member	E: andy@ghozali.ru M: +64 21 395 458 A: Andy's Business Services, 231 High St, Christchurch 8011, NZ
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freakalad

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#225663 16-Jun-2009 18:06

Ragnor : I believe it to be a chicken & egg situation.

Local distributors will not provide alternative OS's until there's a market, but the market will not be there until the product is supplied & supported.

It does not help that there are parties involved with vested interests (WELL documented), doing their darnedest keeping other players out of the end-user game.

It's about paradigm shift & a new way of doing thing; both of which laymen users do not like one little bit.

But, things may change very soon. The economic insensitive is getting more apparent, and once people actually realize that they have actually not been getting the value for their money that they've aways assumed, thing may change very quickly indeed.

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freitasm

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#225665 16-Jun-2009 18:16

freakalad: As it stands now, I can (& have) load the Android OS, Moblin (which is great! btw), or any of a number of linux OS's: Ubuntu, Kubuntu, eeeBuntu, Mint, etc, etc.

Reality is... Linux sucks badly at drivers support. I have a HP Mini Mi, the one that comes with Ubuntu Linux and uses the special HP UI. Beautiful machine, very nice indeed. But I tried the HP Mini Mi and for myself, as a user who wants a bit more that is not enough - it's perfect for users who want to just turn it on and go ahead with email and browsing.

But I wanted a desktop. So I tried Ubuntu. Then tried Ubuntu NR. Then tried Mint. Then tried Moblin. One works ok, but no WiFi support. The other connects fine, but no sound support. Ubuntu is great, but the internal mic doesn't work.

So my option were either use the original HP Linux, or Windows 7 - which I am using now and even though the HP Mini was designed for Linux, Windows 7 runs fast on this hardware and *all* drivers works just like that.

If I can't be bothered getting this thing to work, what makes you think it would hit mainstream?

For a OEM each different hardware is a pain - they have to integrate, make it work. At the end, the cost of implementing Linux on that hardware is probably the same, if not greater, than just getting Windows and get it running with standard drivers.

freakalad: If I pay my dues to Redmond, as I have soooooo many times before, do you think for a minute that one moment I can load xp, then 2000, then vista, then 7 just for kicks, etc, etc?

I can't see why not. If you have a Technet or MSDN license (which means for developers) you have access to all those OS and other software. You can download the images and install, reinstall, do whatever you want. Just not click the button to activate the copy until you think it's ready for that.

nitrotech

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#225693 16-Jun-2009 20:21

While i've always liked the idea of linux I have never had it perfectly meet my needs, IMAP instead of exchange was a pain, computers on a windows domain were always a hassle, setting up a lamp server required expert command line knowledge.

Like it or not the $ invested in windows have really paid off, it's user friendly, easy to administer and packed with useful features. (acknowledged Vista was a bit of a blip)

When I'm running linux even on netbooks these's always a windows programme that I want to install on it, sometimes there's a comparable product but often it's a bit hit and miss if it will suit your needs.

I personally don't think that netbooks are bogged down by windows, i think particularly xp seems to run smoother in my opinion than many of the linux builds i've used and happy to pay a few extra $ for the windows OS.

freakalad

231 posts

Master Geek

#225765 17-Jun-2009 09:55

Linux sucks badly at drivers support

No, it's not the OS that sucks, but the lack of support from manufacturers. Both NVidia & ATI have come to the party, & the results show. By the same token, you can say much the same of vista, with it's poor backward compatibility (and, yes, I know, as much HAS been said).
But I get what you're saying; many drivers' need to be download & build per machine, but that's a pretty straight-forward prospect nowadays & very well documented; may folks are willing & able to assist with that (& usually instructions are included in a file called "INSTALL" or "README").

Much has changed recently.
I have a MacBook Pro Santa Rosa 3.1 laptop (you don't get much more closed than Mac), and though I had a very functional system with Hardy 8.04, it required quite a bit of hacking & tweaking. As of the latest version, Jaunty 9.04, it was an absolute breeze. Everything works right out of the box, and had absolutely no hassles whatsoever.

Granted, there are some issues with WiFi drives, but again, this is due lack of support or source from OEM's & not the OS. To this end, you can make use of the ndiswrapper to load & make use of your windows driver, or you can check if your WiFi chipset falls under the Mad-WiFi supported stack.

If I can't be bothered getting this thing to work, what makes you think it would hit mainstream?

This speaks volumes to the prevailing paradigm, and you're right. Users have spent a lot of time, effort & resources getting to where they're now, and have no desire to learn something new, unless they have a pressing need (think a recession can be counted as a "pressing need"?).
It's simple human nature.

cost of implementing Linux on that hardware is probably the same, if not greater

simple solution, really: open it up, or use standards.
car-manufacturers may be forced to do the same with vehicles to enable non-sanctioned garages to service cars, why should OEM's be any different?

MSDN: who, other than companies, can afford it or squeeze good value from it? What about schools, libraries, large families, non-profit or charitable organizations? Sorry, but such a solution has VERY limited scope, and has even less application to non-professionals.

setting up a lamp server required expert command line knowledge

`sudo tasksel` & select LAMP

XP IS a good OS, and I've never contended otherwise. Windows STILL beats GNU-Linux for games, hands-down, but I suspect that that's because the Linux games market is a drop in the bucket. I still enjoy XBox games, and I very-much like quality MS hardware (same as Logitech).
Use the right tool for the job.

But Vista is an unmitigated disaster, similar to Win-ME, so I really DO hope they get it right with Win-7, but the jury's still out on that one.
Competition is a good thing... it breeds innovation.

I personally don't think that netbooks are bogged down by windows

Are you comparing this blow-by-blow? Are you just referring to the base install, or have you accounted all the extra apps that go with a standard Ubuntu install: OpenOffice, browsers, the need for an AV & Anti-Spyware (like SpyBot) on a windows system, and the cornucopia of tools & apps that come with a standard linux install?
If so, what do you account the TCO for such a system, and do you honestly think Joe Bloggs on the streets would be willing or able to pay the cost of such a system, on top of the original purchase?

Look, I don't want to argue the merits of one OS over another, as Mac trumps both Linux & Windows for ease-of-use & eye-candy. But I do believe that you should use the tool for the job or that you feel comfortable with, but that you should also keen an open mind for new ideas & ways of doing things.

What my peeve was, was with the original article's bias, and the way that the Linux OS that had a critical, HUGE role in starting this "netbook-revolution", was dismissed so flippantly.
That is not fair nor balanced reporting, but this seems to be a prevailing trend in that section of the publication.

The other thing that REALLY gets under my skin is the fact that I cannot get a machine WITHOUT any OS, or an OS of my choice. I do not like being treated as ignorant, and forced to purchase a product I do not WANT, nevermind NEED.
It's like buying a car & being told you're getting it with a car-phone, spinning wheels & a free-flow exhaust, and being charged for it, regardless of whether I want it or not.

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freitasm

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#225767 17-Jun-2009 10:04

freakalad: MSDN: who, other than companies, can afford it or squeeze good value from it? What about schools, libraries, large families, non-profit or charitable organizations? Sorry, but such a solution has VERY limited scope, and has even less application to non-professionals.

But who really goes replacing all sorts of OS on their PCs? You do. I do. Not my parents-in-law. Whatever they have there stays there until it's replaced. MSDN is not for them. It's for developers or companies. So I'd guess you are not in those, but in the "hobbyist" group?

Granted MSDN is not cheap for hobbyists. But at a single price one has access to ALL software (client, servers, databases, developers' tools) from Microsoft. Companies with development teams would be mad to get each individual software instead of licensing MSDN for their developers and IT professionals to test their applications.

freakalad

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#225769 17-Jun-2009 10:29

For devs & large orgs: absolutely. Even if you're not developing explicitly for windows platforms, an MSDN subscription is absolutely indispensable. Similarly to an O'Reilly CD bookshelf.
It's been a while since I've actively used in it any significant way, but last time I checked, you are only allowed to use the MSDN licenses for development & testing, and not for commercial deployment or a production environment, and there is a periodical subscription renewal cost associated.
Have I got it wrong?

Re re-installing & new system:
I've seen families needing to do a full system re-install very frequently, because little Johnny accidentally deleted the ntuser.dat file, a bad infection, or something silly like that.
I've also frequently been told by various support channels that the only fix for a particular problem, like frequent BSoD's, is a format & re-install. If you're going to do a re-install anyway, why not try something news or different?
But wait! One non-transferable license per CPU? So if I'm a home user with one netbook, a laptop & a desktop with XP, Vista & 7 on, I cannot chop & change what I like. Where reasonable expectation would dictate 3 licenses (for a total of 3 OS's to use as I see fit), the EULA actually points to a total of 9: 1 license per OS per CPU

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freitasm

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#225771 17-Jun-2009 10:37

freakalad: It's been a while since I've actively used in it any significant way, but last time I checked, you are only allowed to use the MSDN licenses for development & testing, and not for commercial deployment or a production environment, and there is a periodical subscription renewal cost associated.

Have I got it wrong?

A MSDN license is for development and testing work only, not production - that's correct. However your "license" is yours forever, even if your subscription expires. You just don't have access to new versions.

Also note it's one license per developer or tester, not per organisation. Even so still worth it.

freakalad: Re re-installing & new system:

I've seen families needing to do a full system re-install very frequently, because little Johnny accidentally deleted the ntuser.dat file, a bad infection, or something silly like that.

Oh, the joys of running as Administrator...

freakalad

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#225775 17-Jun-2009 10:55

Thanks for the clarification.

Oh, the joys of running as Administrator...

Ain't that the truth!

I've done my fair share of dev, and can simply no longer stand the pace (36-hour work days, 6/7 days a week). I'm getting too old for that.

What interests me at this stage is the end-user & how they interact with their system.
Do yourself a favor, & do a bit of reading into "good-enough computing".
One system cannot possibly be everything to everybody, but what you can do is enough for anybody.

A standard Gnome/Ubuntu install has ALL the tools that your average user needs, and installing additional tools is a snap.

Take the example of an average office worker (say... call-center):
They commute to work, get coffee & park in front of a desktop.
They use a browser to access to company's intranet system, a mail client, maybe an IM client, spreadsheet & word-processor, and at a stretch, a media player to listen to their ipod.

A standard vanilla-flavored Ubuntu (or almost ANY other linux desktop distro) is ready for work from the offset. Maybe you'll want to just enable UFW (the built-in firewall), and possibly install Skype

On a standard windows system, you have a browser, maybe a very poor mail client, and a dubious IM client. That's it!
Now you still need to secure the win box with AV & anti-spyware, load on a costly office application (most of which will never be used)

But all of this will largely become a moot point, and the OS of choice becomes less important, since the OS will do little more than support a browser, which brings us back to the original point:
NetBooks are intended to be little more that a "life-support system" for a browser (or other tools) to access & manipulate the "cloud". As such, it's really a net-device & for task-oriented devices, Linux is hard to beat, and I would like the choice of OS to use on my own device that I pay good money for.

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freakalad

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Master Geek

#225781 17-Jun-2009 11:13

referenced articles:

Less is Moore

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?STORY_ID=12932356

?Good enough? computing ? will the recession kill off Microsoft?

http://futurismic.com/2009/04/24/good-enough-computing-will-the-recession-kill-off-microsoft/

The Future Of Computing Will Be Good Enough

http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/163607/the_future_of_computing_will_be_good_enough.html

The Future Of Computing Will Be Good Enough (possibly a duplicate)

http://www.linuxworld.com/news/2009/042209-the-future-of-computing-will.html

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