Big Time plan end, Pro Broadband plan is recommended!!!

Forums › Spark New Zealand (including Skinny and BigPipe) › Big Time plan end, Pro Broadband plan is recommended!!!

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BDFL - Memuneh
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#368015 15-Aug-2010 22:17

louisgoodier: ISP's have ridiculously tiny costs for data transfer, its simply greed. Thats why Telecom's shares continued to increase even during the "XT failure".

Pacific Fibre is planning a new trans-pacific cable to compete with Southern Cross. It won't be lit until about 2012 and cost anything between $550 million and $750 million.

And you still think "ISP's (sic) have ridiculously tiny costs for data transfer, its simply greed"?

Talkiet

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#368016 15-Aug-2010 22:20

louisgoodier: Are you serious?

A hard drive gets made overseas, shipped here, marked up and sold on the shelf. I can buy it, write data to it until it full, get in the car drive to the post office and mail it all cheaper than firing that same series of electrical signals down a phone line?

GET REAL PEOPLE!!! YOU GET RIPPED OFF BY ISP's

While my comment was made partially in jest, operating an ISP actually has real costs associated with it. I don't know them all, but I highly doubt you do either.

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

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#368017 15-Aug-2010 22:23

Per user the costs are next to nothing.

The trans-pacific cable is an expensive project, yet if you have 4million users paying $20 each per month you can cover costs in a couple of years. The whole point is, we aren't paying $20 each a month, its more like $60 so why isn't it already completed?

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#368019 15-Aug-2010 22:30

louisgoodier: Per user the costs are next to nothing.

The trans-pacific cable is an expensive project, yet if you have 4million users paying $20 each per month you can cover costs in a couple of years. The whole point is, we aren't paying $20 each a month, its more like $60 so why isn't it already completed?

So you are saying ISP should pay Pacific Fiber $20 a month per user to cover the costs of building the cable?

So this is $20 on the bill - assuming every single Internet user in New Zealand pay the "Pacific Fibre tax", according to you? Not counting the following:

- alternative international network access for redundancy
- networking equipment (routers, switches, firewalls)
- customer equipment supplied (routers, modems)
- salaries
- other equipments required to do work (phone lines, computers)
- power
- last mile DSL or cable
- banking fees
- taxes

Oh, and of course, that little bit that actually makes company do stuff - profit.

louisgoodier

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#368024 15-Aug-2010 22:39

And you have to take into account that this fiber is not just for internet. Its all sorts of media, and companies will be paying premiums to have dedicated point-to-point links which will be funding the project also, and easily cover maintainance.

Once a fiber network is established, the ongoing costs are minor, maybe a replaced router every once in a while. Big whoop. Do you sit at home baby-sitting your router? No. It works until it doesn't work, you reboot it, you fix it you replace it after an elongated period of time.

You only have to look at cross-network charges in New Zealand to see the joke telecommunications is. I can call a Chinese mobile at $0.08 per minute, yet from my landline it'll cost me $0.89 per minute to call my neighbors cellphone.

Profit or Greed? You tell me.

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#368029 15-Aug-2010 23:11

louisgoodier: And you have to take into account that this fiber is not just for internet. Its all sorts of media, and companies will be paying premiums to have dedicated point-to-point links which will be funding the project also, and easily cover maintainance.

Once a fiber network is established, the ongoing costs are minor, maybe a replaced router every once in a while. Big whoop. Do you sit at home baby-sitting your router? No. It works until it doesn't work, you reboot it, you fix it you replace it after an elongated period of time.

You only have to look at cross-network charges in New Zealand to see the joke telecommunications is. I can call a Chinese mobile at $0.08 per minute, yet from my landline it'll cost me $0.89 per minute to call my neighbors cellphone.

Profit or Greed? You tell me.

Cite your sources please for the ongoing costs being minor.

Rhetoric works great for arguments, but facts influence people.

Additionally, your 4 million users figure is laughable. Not every person in NZ purchases an Internet connection. It's public knowledge that there's well under a million broadband connections, so all of a sudden it's $80 per bill. Add to that there's at least one competitive supplier - now it's $160 per bill - assuming they hit 50% penetration right away! And that's before opex, maintenance, cost of finance, profit, or even doing everything else required for the BB service to be offered.

So what that it's cheaper to send a HDD around than transmit the bit electronically. This ain't a new thing.

"Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway. —Tanenbaum, Andrew S. (1996). Computer Networks. New Jersey: Prentice-Hall. pp. 83. ISBN 0-13-349945-6." From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sneakernet

Cheers - N

ps. and yes, ISPs do sit around babysitting their routers 24*7. How many times have you been into the Southern Cross NOC anyway?

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

Talkiet

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#368030 15-Aug-2010 23:19

louisgoodier: You only have to look at cross-network charges in New Zealand to see the joke telecommunications is. I can call a Chinese mobile at $0.08 per minute, yet from my landline it'll cost me $0.89 per minute to call my neighbors cellphone.

Profit or Greed? You tell me.

And just to pick on the other figure you have mentioned. the cost structure for the cheap VoiP calls means that your $0.08/minute works out to roughly $350/GB if it was a bandwidth charge. (Assuming g.729 @ 32kbps)

Note that I'm NOT saying that's the true cost, there are other things to take into account, but that VoIP bandwith is hideously overpriced. I can't believe how much that VoIP provider is ripping us all off!!!!

I mean, everyone knows that 1GB should cost about $1, so surely my VoIP call should only be... (takes breath) ... $0.0002/min.

Cheers - N

(Of course that's all utter rubbish, but it goes to show that you shouldn't focus on a single cost contributor when trying to work out the cost of a service. Just "International traffic" has many components - and I doubt you're aware of all of them, or their costs.)

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

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louisgoodier

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#368035 15-Aug-2010 23:30

Ok, first off - get your head around the fact that the piece of copper you use an internet connection for is also used for thousands of different types of media. All of which you get charged for.

Take a phone for example, you pay a monthly fee to have the phone number then pay on top of that an extortionate amount to use the phone to call anyone outside your local area.

Now that same piece of copper carries your texts that you're over charged for.

That same piece of copper carries your internet connection.

At the end of the month - You've been ripped off. It doesn't take a genius to work out a text doesn't cost a company $0.20 each, yet thats what we're charged. It doesn't take a genius to work out it doesn't cost $0.89 a minute to call a cellphone, yet its what we get charged. It doesn't take a genius to work out it doesn't cost $2 per gb of usage, yet it what we get charged.

Thats the reason Telecom's CEO has a salary package 17 times bigger than NZ's Prime Minister. His travel allowance is bigger a member of parliaments entire allowance and salary combined. He earns as much as 165 linesman. Surely 165 jobs for linesman would perform and produce more than Telecoms CEO.

Again - profit or greed?

Admittedly New Zealand doesn't have the economy nor the infrastructure to provide world class service and a cheap rate. We are however being ripped off. Anyone with some common sense will see that.

All businesses in New Zealand are doing it, go buy an apple from the super market. It has a 500% markup. Again - Profit or greed?

louisgoodier

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#368036 15-Aug-2010 23:32

Btw - Above facts about Telecoms CEO salary:

http://www.3news.co.nz/Telecom-CEOs-salary-package-17-times-bigger-than-PMs/tabid/369/articleID/1183...

Talkiet

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#368037 15-Aug-2010 23:36

louisgoodier:[snip]

Again - profit or greed? [snip]

Sorry, you're still high on the rhetoric.

I'll point to the Telecom share price which has been steadily declining for a few years now. That is a real world market indicator that the profits haven't been massive.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. You seem to believe that the price Telecom (and perhaps other ISPs) charge for international bandwidth should drop by an order of magnitude or two, and I'm going to believe that it wouldn't be sustainable from an economic point of view.

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

Talkiet

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#368038 15-Aug-2010 23:39

louisgoodier: Btw - Above facts about Telecoms CEO salary:

http://www.3news.co.nz/Telecom-CEOs-salary-package-17-times-bigger-than-PMs/tabid/369/articleID/1183...

I don't see the relevance this has. Put the salary beside the investment in the network and tell me what it as as a percentage.

Or, divide $7 million into your 4 million people... Assuming Paul worked for free, you have just dropped 15 cents per month off each persons monthly share of the bill.

I get the impression that you won't be swayed from your opinion, and that's often an admirable trait.

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

louisgoodier

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#368041 15-Aug-2010 23:51

Telecom are losing money because of their continuous failure to invest in the correct areas.

Telecom doesn't need a CEO paid that quantity of money. Hire 100 lines men and pay him 65 linesmen's wages. He's still rich.

Telecom's XT network was a classic example of spend as little as possible, and hope it will last. The Failure of that network cost Telecom more than if they were to do it right in the first place.

The passed laws in 2007 required Telecom to maintain the copper network because of the steady decline in investment, this put huge pressure on Telecom to restore the lines to previous states. Again this would have been cheaper to maintain and improve the service had they thought about some capital investment rather than the shareholder for a couple of years.

At the end of the day - customer service should be: the customer is always right. This thread would exist unless we had an issue with Telecom's service.

Telecom spend 1.1 billion a year in infrastructure, trying to restore a copper network they have already let fall over. For the Copper network its too late, put money into Fiber now starting with the biggest centers to take the pressure off the copper and reduce its maintainance costs.

Investment is what creates a sustainable economy. Telecommunications has lacked significant investment for years.

Talkiet

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#368042 15-Aug-2010 23:57

louisgoodier: [snip]

I'm afraid I'm going to leave you to you very well written, but flawed opinions.

Telecom faces some very harsh regulation which makes it harder for us to do business than some other ISPs in NZ, as well as imposes huge costs that limit what investment can be made in other areas.

The one key thing to keep in mind is that if Telecom was such a huge ripoff, (and bear in mind you are inferring it's a MASSIVE rip off) why hasn't someone else come in and built a network, charged half the price and still made $$$$$$$$?

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

louisgoodier

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#368047 16-Aug-2010 00:15

Every Company that has ever made an offer to the government to build another network has been squashed by the government. Hence why the government has started an unbundling process with Telecom. Its just too slow.

Companies like Woosh have resorted to Wireless networks that are more expensive to run to reduce the fee's Telecom imposes on other ISPs. Yet these networks yet more expensive, are making money.

I am aware that Telecom has huge restrictions on what it can do - and rightfully so. But the Government are not stopping investment in Fiber networks. They're encouraging it. It isn't unrealistic for a small country to have a complete fiber network relatively quickly. I wouldn't be surprised to find serial links in some rural exchanges.

Telecom as a business has made some huge mistakes over the years. Its about time something changed, because its clearly not working.

I have enjoyed this conversation N, but like you said we shall have to agree to disagree.

louisgoodier

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#368048 16-Aug-2010 00:15

[EDIT] - Sorry double posted above

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