Telecom Ultra Broadband: Fibre vs VDSL

Forums › Spark New Zealand (including Skinny and BigPipe) › Telecom Ultra Broadband: Fibre vs VDSL

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sbiddle

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Biddle Corp

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#872812 6-Aug-2013 19:09

I'd actually love to post a detailed post explaining how near end and far end crosstalk will impact xDSL signals, particularly in regards to Annex M but your arrogance means I simply can't be bothered wasting my time.

Kirdog

202 posts

Master Geek

#872823 6-Aug-2013 19:20

sbiddle: I'd actually love to post a detailed post explaining how near end and far end crosstalk will impact xDSL signals, particularly in regards to Annex M but your arrogance means I simply can't be bothered wasting my time.

Well i'm sorry. But i don't like myth posts without technical proof. :)

Sorry about my English guys :>

PaulBags

809 posts

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#872841 6-Aug-2013 20:10

I'm ok with ~14Mb/s down ~0.9Mb/s up. Been thinking of getting a master splitter, to see if I can get that down speed higher a bit, but, meh. It can wait.

Want UFB early? Then move.

Talkiet

4792 posts

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#872843 6-Aug-2013 20:16

Kirdog: [snip]
Well, easy trolling, but in fact i still can't see answer on my question. I can see forums with "myth creators". Give me technical report please. :)

[snip]

I didn't just do that to be smart. There is a technical doc on the first page of results with the information you seek. Find it yourself.

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

hydroksyde

31 posts

Geek

#872844 6-Aug-2013 20:18

Kirdog:
sbiddle:
SHDSL on the other hand offers symmetrical speeds and is offered by Chorus.

I have asked chorus about it, they said, ask your ISP.

I didn't found which ISP support it.

You obviously didn't look hard enough, most ISPs which offer dedicated internet or WAN services will deliver over SHDSL

Inphinity

2780 posts

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#872903 6-Aug-2013 21:15

Kirdog:

Well, easy trolling,

I have to assume at this stage that it is, in fact, you who is trolling.

plambrechtsen

1948 posts

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#872919 6-Aug-2013 21:56

Inphinity:
Kirdog:

Well, easy trolling,

I have to assume at this stage that it is, in fact, you who is trolling.

I have to agree with you here Inphinity... Since when I go into an argument with Steve or Neil I would want to be pretty well armed with the facts if I thought they didn't know what they were talking about. Since more often that not they tend to be right about these sorts of things.

If I were you Kirkdog I would accept the VERY learned responses you have already been given. Especially considering the roles both of these engineers have in their respective companies.

http://www.niccstandards.org.uk/files/current/ND1405V3.1.2.pdf?type=pdf

"Annex M can be combined with ADSL2 or ADSL2plus.Whilst ADSL Annex M can provide higher upstream rates for services such as high-quality videoconferencing, it is not spectrally compatible with ADSL over POTS (Annex A), which is widely deployed on the BT network.This is due to the crosstalk that would result in mutual interference because the Annex M upstream band overlaps with the Annex A downstream band (DMT tones 32-63)."

Meh... Lets argue about this some more.

Equinox IT

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Kirdog

202 posts

Master Geek

#872930 6-Aug-2013 22:35

plambrechtsen:
Inphinity:
Kirdog:

Well, easy trolling,

I have to assume at this stage that it is, in fact, you who is trolling.

I have to agree with you here Inphinity... Since when I go into an argument with Steve or Neil I would want to be pretty well armed with the facts if I thought they didn't know what they were talking about. Since more often that not they tend to be right about these sorts of things.

If I were you Kirkdog I would accept the VERY learned responses you have already been given. Especially considering the roles both of these engineers have in their respective companies.

http://www.niccstandards.org.uk/files/current/ND1405V3.1.2.pdf?type=pdf

"Annex M can be combined with ADSL2 or ADSL2plus.Whilst ADSL Annex M can provide higher upstream rates for services such as high-quality videoconferencing, it is not spectrally compatible with ADSL over POTS (Annex A), which is widely deployed on the BT network.This is due to the crosstalk that would result in mutual interference because the Annex M upstream band overlaps with the Annex A downstream band (DMT tones 32-63)."

Meh... Lets argue about this some more.

YEA lets argue!!! :D

But, thanks for explanation, i can see the problem now. Hmm. But how is VDSL running together with ADSL now? It should create a lot more crosstalk

And how the other providers run it without problems. even with 6 db Noise Margin? Seems magic. I have found some posts on other NZ forum, where users just change modulation on their modems and get AnnexM, except on telecom.

For now i can see the problem, but seems you exaggerate it too much. People in the world use it and some ISPs use it in NZ. I still think that problem is not fully technical, it is more problems with company management, someone inside Telecom or Chorus, said: "we will not provide it, because we don't like it". And thats it.

Sorry about my English guys :>

Talkiet

4792 posts

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Trusted

#872931 6-Aug-2013 22:45

Kirdog: [deleted stuff]

[edit - deleted my first reply and have replaced it with a more suitable reply]

You're wrong.

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

Kirdog

202 posts

Master Geek

#872935 6-Aug-2013 22:57

Talkiet:
Kirdog: [deleted stuff]

[edit - deleted my first reply and have replaced it with a more suitable reply]

You're wrong.

Cheers - N

~Maybe~

Sorry about my English guys :>

plambrechtsen

1948 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user

#872951 7-Aug-2013 07:21

Kirdog: ~Maybe~

Wow... Just wow.

I highly recommend you actually do some research and take on-board the Neil's senior technical position within Telecom and Steve's extensive blog posting on these matters yet he doesn't work for Chorus (or Telecom for that matter). They know what they are talking about.

Kirdog: YEA lets argue!!! :DBut, thanks for explanation, i can see the problem now. Hmm. But how is VDSL running together with ADSL now? It should create a lot more crosstalk.

Erm, probably because VDSL uses the same carriers ADSL Annex A uses, plus a much higher frequency range too that doesn't interfere with ADSL. Annex M has some carriers going in the different direction being upstream rather than downstream and thus would interfere with ADSL Annex A and VDSL.

Kirdog: And how the other providers run it without problems. even with 6 db Noise Margin? Seems magic. I have found some posts on other NZ forum, where users just change modulation on their modems and get AnnexM, except on telecom. For now i can see the problem, but seems you exaggerate it too much. People in the world use it and some ISPs use it in NZ. I still think that problem is not fully technical, it is more problems with company management, someone inside Telecom or Chorus, said: "we will not provide it, because we don't like it". And thats it.

Well other providers shouldn't be using Annex M on Chorus copper (as I am fairly sure Chorus explicitly forbid it). Noise Margin has nothing to do with Annex A vs Annex M.

The only way Annex M would work is if EVERYONE on that copper bundle used it. Or if they were close enough to the DSLAM that they would wind down the power on the channel to allow Annex M to not significantly impact everyone else on that bundle (which is how they support it in AU). Strangely enough if you are close enough to the DSLAM then you would go for VDSL rather than ADSL Annex M.

It's nothing to do with "because we don't like it" the argument actually is "we won't provide Annex M since we don't want to mess up the vast majority of our customers for a small minority of customers who want it because it's quite hard to tune properly without completely messing up all your customers. Especially when VDSL is available and a vastly superior solution for those closer to the DSLAM. A similar argument about Noise Margin is by having a 12db noise margin you have vastly more stable broadband for all people. A lower noise margin means some people who are closer get better broadband but those further away are much much worse". Chorus took the correct conservative approach to ensure great broadband for all and not a huge complexity on the provisioning side to need to determine if they need a different noise margin.

The needs of the many to have stable broadband far outweigh the few who desire slightly higher sync rates (noise margin) or higher upstream (Annex M) to the detriment of everyone else.

PS: A "Sorry Steve & Neil I was wrong" would be appreciated.

tilde

44 posts

Geek

#873074 7-Aug-2013 11:28

woah, didn't realise my thread would be so informative.

i am curious, kirdog what quals or experience do you have about broadband other than reading of wikipedia? i'm not an expert at technical talk (much of the discussion has gone over my head) but i see the same consistent themes coming through your posts

1) constant reference to russian broadband being super duper awesome compared to NZ, despite posts with proof refuting that NZ isn't the 3rd world you seem convince it is

2) you want better upload, that's great but you don't seem to want to pay for it. again, posters have given you options such as moving to an area with UFB, getting direct fibre to your doorstep at great expense etc.

put bluntly, you want to buy a car that can go as fast as a ferrari (insert $$$ car brand of choice here) but only willing to pay for a toyota corolla.

3) you don't understand how big business works. decisions don't get made purely from someone going "hrm... i don't like it therefore don't do it". there are many things to consider such as business risk, return on investment, risk to brand if rollout fails among a few. it sounds like chorus has evaluated it and decided that enabling it would be far riskier than not doing it.

Kirdog

202 posts

Master Geek

#873300 7-Aug-2013 15:55

plambrechtsen:
Kirdog: ~Maybe~

Wow... Just wow.

I highly recommend you actually do some research and take on-board the Neil's senior technical position within Telecom and Steve's extensive blog posting on these matters yet he doesn't work for Chorus (or Telecom for that matter). They know what they are talking about.

Kirdog: YEA lets argue!!! :DBut, thanks for explanation, i can see the problem now. Hmm. But how is VDSL running together with ADSL now? It should create a lot more crosstalk.

Erm, probably because VDSL uses the same carriers ADSL Annex A uses, plus a much higher frequency range too that doesn't interfere with ADSL. Annex M has some carriers going in the different direction being upstream rather than downstream and thus would interfere with ADSL Annex A and VDSL.

Kirdog: And how the other providers run it without problems. even with 6 db Noise Margin? Seems magic. I have found some posts on other NZ forum, where users just change modulation on their modems and get AnnexM, except on telecom. For now i can see the problem, but seems you exaggerate it too much. People in the world use it and some ISPs use it in NZ. I still think that problem is not fully technical, it is more problems with company management, someone inside Telecom or Chorus, said: "we will not provide it, because we don't like it". And thats it.

Well other providers shouldn't be using Annex M on Chorus copper (as I am fairly sure Chorus explicitly forbid it). Noise Margin has nothing to do with Annex A vs Annex M.

The only way Annex M would work is if EVERYONE on that copper bundle used it. Or if they were close enough to the DSLAM that they would wind down the power on the channel to allow Annex M to not significantly impact everyone else on that bundle (which is how they support it in AU). Strangely enough if you are close enough to the DSLAM then you would go for VDSL rather than ADSL Annex M.

It's nothing to do with "because we don't like it" the argument actually is "we won't provide Annex M since we don't want to mess up the vast majority of our customers for a small minority of customers who want it because it's quite hard to tune properly without completely messing up all your customers. Especially when VDSL is available and a vastly superior solution for those closer to the DSLAM. A similar argument about Noise Margin is by having a 12db noise margin you have vastly more stable broadband for all people. A lower noise margin means some people who are closer get better broadband but those further away are much much worse". Chorus took the correct conservative approach to ensure great broadband for all and not a huge complexity on the provisioning side to need to determine if they need a different noise margin.

The needs of the many to have stable broadband far outweigh the few who desire slightly higher sync rates (noise margin) or higher upstream (Annex M) to the detriment of everyone else.

PS: A "Sorry Steve & Neil I was wrong" would be appreciated.

Oh. Thank you for the all information. Now i can see the full technical problem with last reasonable posts. I argued before because i just saw posts without any good technical info. I like to get to the root of the problem.

I apologize for any stupid post which i wrote.

Thank you.

Sorry about my English guys :>

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