Telecom Takes UFB Priority

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Snowflake

#417389 15-Dec-2010 01:08

Zeon:
The main problem is, that while ISPs could offer free national - the problem is that Telecom Wholesale congestion means that they have to price it otherwise there would be massive congestion (and its already bad enough). Local Content will come, when we start seeing a few CDNs beyond Akamai here you will see. Think about Youtube and ISP caches - half of the videos I watch on Orcon are cached on their Google cache so I can watch them for free at work...

you've really got to stop calling it 'free' national traffic. there is no such thing. cheap perhaps, cheaper than international definately, but free, no. someone has to pay for the infrastructure to get those data packets from invercargill to auckland (or vice versa) and from ISP-A to ISP-B - they dont just magically appear there.

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Zeon

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#417391 15-Dec-2010 01:14

Regs:
Zeon:
The main problem is, that while ISPs could offer free national - the problem is that Telecom Wholesale congestion means that they have to price it otherwise there would be massive congestion (and its already bad enough). Local Content will come, when we start seeing a few CDNs beyond Akamai here you will see. Think about Youtube and ISP caches - half of the videos I watch on Orcon are cached on their Google cache so I can watch them for free at work...

you've really got to stop calling it 'free' national traffic. there is no such thing. cheap perhaps, cheaper than international definately, but free, no. someone has to pay for the infrastructure to get those data packets from invercargill to auckland (or vice versa) and from ISP-A to ISP-B - they dont just magically appear there.

Yes fully agree, just easier to argue as "free". Backhaul makes up a significant part of our current fibre price so its not free for us. Think Slingshot was lying in their latest press release on UFB pricing?

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ojala

188 posts

Master Geek

#417393 15-Dec-2010 01:25

Regs:
you've really got to stop calling it 'free' national traffic. there is no such thing. cheap perhaps, cheaper than international definately, but free, no. someone has to pay for the infrastructure to get those data packets from invercargill to auckland (or vice versa) and from ISP-A to ISP-B - they dont just magically appear there.

Very little is free but national traffic should be part of the ISP's basic infrastructure. You don't usually pay electricity, water or sewage by the distance either. Statistics is your friend, backed up by T&C for the bad behaviour.

One doesn't need that many 10GE's across the country. When a gigabytes takes less than a second, billing the end user will be more expensive than the actual data transfer.

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Snowflake

#417394 15-Dec-2010 01:27

Zeon:
Yes fully agree, just easier to argue as "free". Backhaul makes up a significant part of our current fibre price so its not free for us. Think Slingshot was lying in their latest press release on UFB pricing?

i'm pretty sure slingshot (/callplus) actually have their own national capacity and presence at at least a couple of peering points so they would probably be in a better position than most to offer that sort of thing.

an isp that services a single area - e.g. invercargill - and relies on telecom for the national backhaul might be in a much different position.

economies of scale definately assist in this equation - unless all your scale is in 'all you can eat' connections of course.

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richms

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#417396 15-Dec-2010 01:39

Regs:

you've really got to stop calling it 'free' national traffic. there is no such thing. cheap perhaps, cheaper than international definately, but free, no. someone has to pay for the infrastructure to get those data packets from invercargill to auckland (or vice versa) and from ISP-A to ISP-B - they dont just magically appear there.

When people stop calling them free local calls, I will stop calling it free national traffic. Same principles apply.

Richard rich.ms

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Snowflake

#417397 15-Dec-2010 01:41

ojala:

Very little is free but national traffic should be part of the ISP's basic infrastructure. You don't usually pay electricity, water or sewage by the distance either. Statistics is your friend, backed up by T&C for the bad behaviour.

actually if you go compare electricity prices, water prices, you'll probably find that you do pay by the distance. pricing varies between suburbs in a city too. as for sewage, you'd hardly send it across the country, but if you did, i expecy you would pay a premium to do that too..

One doesn't need that many 10GE's across the country. When a gigabytes takes less than a second, billing the end user will be more expensive than the actual data transfer.

if you are an ISP in invercargill, for arguements sake, and you have 5000 subscribers who all need a national CIR of 2.5Mbps of bandwidth to work with then thats a whole 10GE pipe + change gone already. To give those 5000 subscribers 30Mbps simultaneously, then you need 15 10GE pipes... the numbers start building fast. If the bulk of the content they need to access is in AKL or WLG then you've got a lot of infrastructure cost to deal with.

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Snowflake

#417398 15-Dec-2010 01:44

richms:

When people stop calling them free local calls, I will stop calling it free national traffic. Same principles apply.

free 'local' internet would make a lot more sense than free 'national' internet... but i agree - neither is free and the term should be ditched completely in all cases. Perhaps 'unlimited' local calling would be a better description in that case.

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Zeon

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#417399 15-Dec-2010 02:03

Regs:

if you are an ISP in invercargill, for arguements sake, and you have 5000 subscribers who all need a national CIR of 2.5Mbps of bandwidth to work with then thats a whole 10GE pipe + change gone already. To give those 5000 subscribers 30Mbps simultaneously, then you need 15 10GE pipes... the numbers start building fast. If the bulk of the content they need to access is in AKL or WLG then you've got a lot of infrastructure cost to deal with.

What are the options RE dark fibre for backhaul? I realize Single Mode can only go 70km or so, but are there options to extend this like they do with submarine cables? Because if you could get say a dark fibre from invercargill to Auckland and maybe stop off at major IX peering points along the way for $15k per month or something that would cost you around $3 per customer per month and if that gives you access to a whole bunch of IX based content including isky, akamai etc.....

10gbps interfaces aren't that expensive these days either.

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ojala

188 posts

Master Geek

#417401 15-Dec-2010 02:12

Regs:

if you are an ISP in invercargill, for arguements sake, and you have 5000 subscribers who all need a national CIR of 2.5Mbps of bandwidth to work with then thats a whole 10GE pipe + change gone already. To give those 5000 subscribers 30Mbps simultaneously, then you need 15 10GE pipes... the numbers start building fast. If the bulk of the content they need to access is in AKL or WLG then you've got a lot of infrastructure cost to deal with.

That's not a typical traffic pattern for internet use, nor a way to build internet core network. Forget the CIR's and put there enough bandwidth for the actual traffic, projected traffic and peaks. Continue the process as long as necessary.

NZ is small enough for data to be location independent.

wired

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#417454 15-Dec-2010 09:06

ojala: You don't usually pay electricity, water or sewage by the distance either.

Electricity has a distance pricing component in it. It's called nodal pricing and it is built into the electricity price that the retailers quote. Hence the price in Auckland in typically more expensive than the price in Hamilton.

wired

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#417458 15-Dec-2010 09:15

PenultimateHop:
DonGould: Again, that's what standards are all about. .industry needs to develop a standard for message interchange. I'm sure most of this work must have been done, but it's really not that complex, didn't we build xml for this sort of crap?

D

I take it you've never worked with telco OSS or sat on any standards bodies. If enforce standardise it we can wait til 2017 (check out how long xUBA took to define, or any major RFC, or anything the ITU does) so that the standards are defined (and out of date to their relevance) and that all major vendors can support it; or we will suffer legislated standards that don't make sense/scale.

I've built networks and sat on standards bodies (including those for two NBNs now); and this is one of the toughest areas to get correct. It certainly is not straight forward -- go look at the massive investments being made by NBNCo into their IT domain to try and get this right, or any telco in general with how much they spend on OSS/BSS platforms (and still struggle to get it right).

Implementing it 33 times over for each LFC multipled by each ISP and making it workable? I believe there is a Tui billboard in that.

Pro-question: How many ISPs have fully automated interfaces to TNZ's provisioning systems? (This used to be called OOT, it may have a new name now)

You won't need to implement 33 interfaces, the TCF has published the BSS interface that all the ISPs would use at http://www.tcf.org.nz/content/97b4e3bb-7823-4b56-b789-38378890a13c.html to order connections, report faults, be notified of where new areas are being built etc.

The layer 2 service description is also on that page. If I have read that correctly, the CIR needs to be tagged differently to traffic using EIR. The router needs to have lots more smarts than it had to with the DSL "CIR".

DonGould

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#417553 15-Dec-2010 11:41

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DonGould: Personally I'd like to see the Minister give Enabled chch, the dun team that area, vector akl, city link wgtn and telecom the rest. Do we end up with ~8 then?

what are you basing this 'decision' of yours on? i've had connections delivered over vector fibre in auckland with several unscheduled outages over the period, and connections with citylink in wellington, again with several unscheduled outages - some of which lasted over 8 hours. interestingly enough, a few of the vector outages coincided with power outages.... pretty poor for a 'power' company. i've never had an unscheduled outage with telstraclear or telecom fibre in auckland - even through the power outages.

one of my concerns with a lot of smaller fibre companies is that they lose the cost benefits of scalability. when they are required to meet a specific price, will they take shortcuts on the network build and maintenance so they can deliver the price point? are there any penalties for excessive outages or poor service built in to the service delivery specification?

Ok,

Vector get the gig because they ran the national ad campaign to get kiwis interested in fibre and put it in terms that would make sense to most people.

Have you see this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd5nfhZo57w&feature=player_embedded - it's funny and even shows images of throwing sheep in to the fibre to get them to town, but really?!

Vector also don't have an existing infrastructure base to protect. Chorus will still have the copper network so there's clear conflict to me. In .au this has been addressed by NBNCo buying the customers, but I don't see that here.

Do I trust Chorus to push the fibre while also still having the copper kit as well? Not really.

city link - that's just a no brainier. Rich and the team are the guys who whacked fibre on tram lines and light up the cbd. they have a proven track record by my observation of getting more 1's and 0's to people at a lower cost, empowering more people to use more 1's and 0's.

It's clear to me that they're innovative thinkers who just get a job done. That's the sort of team I want to see more of in .nz.

Chorus - In wgtn and akl these guys already have half the work done. If V/CL get the deal but don't step up with performance then Chorus can just unbundle at layer 1 and connect unless V/CL manage to make such a hash of putting in the L1 that renders the fibre unusable.

So in my view by giving V/CL the gig the minister has his bases covered in more places.

Chorus will keep the comp red hot because if the fibre guys don't step up with amazing offerings (ie something better than 50/30) then customers will just keep using copper.

If Chorus keep the price high on the copper then the fibre will get faster uptake.

If Chorus drop the copper price then kiwis win by getting faster cheaper net.

If the fibre guys drop the price then kiwis win by getting faster cheaper net.

If the fibre guys don't make it reliable and Chorus only has copper then eventually they'll over build...

Seems like a win, win, win to me with lots of incentive to everyone to keep well on the game.

D

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ockel

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#417571 15-Dec-2010 12:26

DonGould:
Regs:
DonGould: Personally I'd like to see the Minister give Enabled chch, the dun team that area, vector akl, city link wgtn and telecom the rest. Do we end up with ~8 then?

what are you basing this 'decision' of yours on? i've had connections delivered over vector fibre in auckland with several unscheduled outages over the period, and connections with citylink in wellington, again with several unscheduled outages - some of which lasted over 8 hours. interestingly enough, a few of the vector outages coincided with power outages.... pretty poor for a 'power' company. i've never had an unscheduled outage with telstraclear or telecom fibre in auckland - even through the power outages.

one of my concerns with a lot of smaller fibre companies is that they lose the cost benefits of scalability. when they are required to meet a specific price, will they take shortcuts on the network build and maintenance so they can deliver the price point? are there any penalties for excessive outages or poor service built in to the service delivery specification?

Ok,

Vector get the gig because they ran the national ad campaign to get kiwis interested in fibre and put it in terms that would make sense to most people.

Have you see this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd5nfhZo57w&feature=player_embedded - it's funny and even shows images of throwing sheep in to the fibre to get them to town, but really?!

Vector also don't have an existing infrastructure base to protect. Chorus will still have the copper network so there's clear conflict to me. In .au this has been addressed by NBNCo buying the customers, but I don't see that here.

Do I trust Chorus to push the fibre while also still having the copper kit as well? Not really.

city link - that's just a no brainier. Rich and the team are the guys who whacked fibre on tram lines and light up the cbd. they have a proven track record by my observation of getting more 1's and 0's to people at a lower cost, empowering more people to use more 1's and 0's.

It's clear to me that they're innovative thinkers who just get a job done. That's the sort of team I want to see more of in .nz.

Chorus - In wgtn and akl these guys already have half the work done. If V/CL get the deal but don't step up with performance then Chorus can just unbundle at layer 1 and connect unless V/CL manage to make such a hash of putting in the L1 that renders the fibre unusable.

So in my view by giving V/CL the gig the minister has his bases covered in more places.

Chorus will keep the comp red hot because if the fibre guys don't step up with amazing offerings (ie something better than 50/30) then customers will just keep using copper.

If Chorus keep the price high on the copper then the fibre will get faster uptake.

If Chorus drop the copper price then kiwis win by getting faster cheaper net.

If the fibre guys drop the price then kiwis win by getting faster cheaper net.

If the fibre guys don't make it reliable and Chorus only has copper then eventually they'll over build...

Seems like a win, win, win to me with lots of incentive to everyone to keep well on the game.

D

Any chance that Citylink's majority shareholder didnt think that the pricing (and your philosophy of dropping prices to give kiwis faster cheaper net) and the cost of connection made economic sense?

According to Stuff, sources suggest that Telecom dropped its wholesale prices. Maybe Vector and Citylink didnt and as such didnt make the shortlist? In both cases these companies have a board to report to rather than Northpower and WEL's community based trust boards which tend to have different views on ROI.

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graemeh

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#417613 15-Dec-2010 13:47

ockel: According to Stuff, sources suggest that Telecom dropped its wholesale prices. Maybe Vector and Citylink didnt and as such didnt make the shortlist? In both cases these companies have a board to report to rather than Northpower and WEL's community based trust boards which tend to have different views on ROI.

That's pretty much what Simon MacKenzie at Vector is reported to have said. To give the pricing the government wanted Vector needed the govt to carry more of the risk.

My interpretation is that it can be done at the prices the govt wants (presumably those we have been told) but it would require a quite high uptake.

ockel

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#417623 15-Dec-2010 14:13

graemeh:
ockel: According to Stuff, sources suggest that Telecom dropped its wholesale prices. Maybe Vector and Citylink didnt and as such didnt make the shortlist? In both cases these companies have a board to report to rather than Northpower and WEL's community based trust boards which tend to have different views on ROI.

That's pretty much what Simon MacKenzie at Vector is reported to have said. To give the pricing the government wanted Vector needed the govt to carry more of the risk.

My interpretation is that it can be done at the prices the govt wants (presumably those we have been told) but it would require a quite high uptake.

77-78% of homes passed by my calculations. In the US it sits at 30% after 6 years (once passed) with about 55% for community based rollouts.

Sixth Labour Government - "Vision without Execution is just Hallucination"

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