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BDFL - Memuneh
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# 39214 11-Aug-2009 10:50
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I've seen in the NZNOG list this morning Telecom New Zealand is planning to extend international http caching.


Telecom would like to advise that over the coming weeks we will be extending our international http caching service.


I have contacted Telecom to find out more about this...





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BDFL - Memuneh
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  # 245176 11-Aug-2009 13:03
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  # 245210 11-Aug-2009 14:49
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Makes sense, big performance boost and reduces contention on international bandwidth. However as always there will be the odd issue with things being cached that shouldn't.

 
 
 
 


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  # 245228 11-Aug-2009 15:25
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so can telecom break a contract with it's customers? i signed up for a broadband plan that didn't mention anything about caching so how can telecom force me to have caching on my plan? whether it is a performance boost or not how can they force this on me?

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  # 245260 11-Aug-2009 16:25
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batmann: so can telecom break a contract with it's customers? i signed up for a broadband plan that didn't mention anything about caching so how can telecom force me to have caching on my plan? whether it is a performance boost or not how can they force this on me?


If you're really that concerned why don't you read the terms and conditions that you agreed to when signing up and see if you can find anything in there that prevents or allows them doing this.

I suspect they have themselves legally covered...


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  # 245364 11-Aug-2009 20:51
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i read their terms and conditions:

http://www.telecom.co.nz/help/content/0,10709,204874-204524,00.html

nothing there to do with future caching plans. doesn't even say they have the right to update or change their terms and conditions.

for those who want to know the potential disadvantages of caching read this:

http://www.cisco.com/web/about/ac123/ac147/ac174/ac199/about_cisco_ipj_archive_article09186a00800c8903.html

say bye bye to knowing the real amount of people accessing your website because your website will be served from the telecom isp cache. not very good when an advertiser asks you how many people visit your site.

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  # 245365 11-Aug-2009 20:56
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batmann: so can telecom break a contract with it's customers? i signed up for a broadband plan that didn't mention anything about caching so how can telecom force me to have caching on my plan? whether it is a performance boost or not how can they force this on me?


It amazes me how some people seem to be able to find something to whinge about no matter what, if if the change is a positive move.

Are you aware that the web browser you're using right now temporarily caches images, css files and javascript files based on http header settings for every site you visit?


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  # 245368 11-Aug-2009 21:11
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Here's an example of reloading this very thread in my web browser, see all the stuff coming from my the web browsers cache instead of being reloaded pointlessly from the source when it hasn't changed?



Every web site you use would be way slower if your web browser didn't cache static things.

Caching at the ISP level typically in my experience a good thing.  Sure there can be problems but the performance boost is well worth it considering our geographic distance from the major content providers in the US.

 
 
 
 


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  # 245416 11-Aug-2009 23:05
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I fail to see how any of this would need to be covered by the terms and conditions. All the ISP is doing is providing you with access to the internet. How they do this is entirely up to them.

batmann: for those who want to know the potential disadvantages of caching read this:

http://www.cisco.com/web/about/ac123/ac147/ac174/ac199/about_cisco_ipj_archive_article09186a00800c8903.html


That article was written in September 1999 - almost 10 years ago. How much of that is still relevant with current caching technology?

batmann: say bye bye to knowing the real amount of people accessing your website because your website will be served from the telecom isp cache. not very good when an advertiser asks you how many people visit your site.


If the webmaster of said website to producing the correct expiry and meta headers, then this won't be an issue. The cache should honour these.

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  # 245445 12-Aug-2009 00:37
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batmann: so can telecom break a contract with it's customers? i signed up for a broadband plan that didn't mention anything about caching so how can telecom force me to have caching on my plan? whether it is a performance boost or not how can they force this on me?



  • While we always strive to provide a consistent service, there are a number of factors that influence reliability. For this reason, we do not guarantee connection speed bandwidth, latency (delay) or bit rate through our broadband network at any one point in time.

  • according to those terms and conditions your broadband speed could drop to dialup speeds and your latency quadruple and there wouldnt be anything you could do about it.  (except maybe pursue them under 'false advertising' claims if they advertise broadband as being x times faster than dialup...)

    as was previously mentioned... if the website you are visiting has been properly designed, then any dynamic or frequently updated content should still work as expected with a cache in the middle.  a lot of websites should run faster - especially the more popular ones that are heavy on images.




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      # 245559 12-Aug-2009 12:46
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    The problem is that in the past they have no honored no cache or expiration headers.

    IMO that's generating unlicensed copies of the site since they have specifially being denied the right to cache them by the headers, or had a specific instruction on when they can distribute them until. If they are obeying the headers then there is no problem with it to users IMO. They do need to have an optout for people who need a real connection to check on server performance and who are updating sites etc, but they offer port25 optout which is more then some other ISPs that are known to suck manage to offer.

    Once expired in the cache the caching server will contact the webserver to see if it has changed normally, and those count as accesses, so the traffic accounting issue is another red herring.




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      # 249042 20-Aug-2009 14:19
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    Performance of what, Telecom's income?

    I don't like the idea of paying for cached objects at the same rate as everything else.

    However, more importantly: Since when does copyright infringement not include caching servers? I'd like to know if Telecom plan on getting permission for every piece of copyrighted material they plan on making a digital copy of?

    I for one would certainly be unhappy if anything I have copyright gets copied by Telecom for what they are charging end users to view!



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    # 249044 20-Aug-2009 14:22
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    kiwirock: Performance of what, Telecom's income?


    Cached objects are closer your location, therefore improves performance when accesing them.

    kiwirock: I don't like the idea of paying for cached objects at the same rate as everything else.


    It's all bits, what's the difference? The bits from the cache will deliver the same information as the bits from the source. Your browser does it now.

    kiwirock: However, more importantly: Since when does copyright infringement not include caching servers? I'd like to know if Telecom plan on getting permission for every piece of copyrighted material they plan on making a digital copy of?


    The Copyright law clearly provides exemption to cache servers used by ISPs. Go read it.

    kiwirock: I for one would certainly be unhappy if anything I have copyright gets copied by Telecom for what they are charging end users to view!


    Why? Is allowed.







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    # 249046 20-Aug-2009 14:29
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    kiwirock: However, more importantly: Since when does copyright infringement not include caching servers?


    Copyright (New Technologies) Amendment Act 2008 No 27 (as at 31 October 2008), Public Act:


    "92E Internet service provider does not infringe copyright by caching infringing material“(1) An Internet service provider does not infringe copyright in a work by caching material if the Internet service provider—

    “(a) does not modify the material; and

    “(b) complies with any conditions imposed by the copyright owner of the material for access to that material; and

    “(c) does not interfere with the lawful use of technology to obtain data on the use of the material; and

    “(d) updates the material in accordance with reasonable industry practice.

    “(2) However, an Internet service provider does infringe copyright in a work by caching material if the Internet service provider does not delete the material or prevent access to it by users as soon as possible after the Internet service provider became aware that—

    “(a) the material has been deleted from its original source; or

    “(b) access to the material at its original source has been prevented; or

    “(c) a court has ordered that the material be deleted from its original source or that access to the material at its original source be prevented.






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      # 249065 20-Aug-2009 15:12
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    why wouldnt you want your ISP to locally cache the stuff you're accessing? Take the recent Windows 7 downloads, for example. Instead of hosting the image on a single website it is distributed across the internet on several caching servers - in this case akamai servers - so that when you go to download it you are getting the traffic locally (hopefully) and therefore much faster. There are very good reasons for caching technology and the users shouldnt care if the content comes from a local cache, as long as its bit-equivalent to the original copy stored offshore.




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    BDFL - Memuneh
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      # 249066 20-Aug-2009 15:12
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    batmann: say bye bye to knowing the real amount of people accessing your website because your website will be served from the telecom isp cache. not very good when an advertiser asks you how many people visit your site.


    Some services may be based on counting the number of times an image is loaded, and this is loaded from the cache. But some good services are smarter. Take Google Analytics for example. It's a javascript - go on look at Geekzone pages - and at the end of the page it calls their server to update the information about the specific pageview.

    This is done when the browser loads the page and executes the script. It means it runs on the client browser, regardless of the page coming from a server or a cache.





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