Arrgg!! Rogue 'SMS Subscription Services' and Vodafone

Forums › One New Zealand (including Vodafone, WxC, Farmside) › Arrgg!! Rogue 'SMS Subscription Services' and Vodafone

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Master Geek
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#220411 1-Jun-2009 14:48

I'm sure VF can point to some fine print in a TOS somewhere..

ajw

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#220421 1-Jun-2009 15:19

ZollyMonsta:
billgates: Here is the fine print from the quiz.

"Summary of Terms

Welcome to the Official Mobile IQ Quiz! After completing the mobile quiz, we will calculate your score and ask you to enter your cell phone number to gain access to your IQ results as well as a mobile content subscription. Depending on your carrier and cell phone manufacturer, the mobile content may include ringtones, games, wallpapers, or fun text messages. This content will cost as much as $19.99 per month and will be sent to your cell. If you would not like to sign up for the subscription content to your phone to see your results, simply click the Get Results link on the cell phone entry page to view how you did!"

All very well... but there was a PIN that supposedly had to be entered to subscribe in our case. The PIN was in no way entered, however my wife was subscribed. This STINKS of a SCAM and Vodafone seem uninterested.

The outcome of this will help us decide wether to stay with Vodafone or leave, as our two on contract accounts will expire shortly.. The opposition is looking better these days.

Before you sign up with any other mobile providers wait and see what 2 Degrees mobile is offering. I believe they will be releasing price plans soon.

freitasm

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#220447 1-Jun-2009 16:21

The way I read those T&Cs, by entering the "quiz" you are automatically subscribing - no PIN required. I think the PIN is only required if you do the subscription via SMS.

As for Sybase 365... Sybase is a database company, also providing other services. I think they provide the communications framework, not the service itself. It'd be akin to a company buying credits from Clickatell and sending out spam.

VFNZPaulBrislen

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#220456 1-Jun-2009 16:44

Hi all,

while I appreciate your points of view I really don't think you want your telco provider deciding which services you can/can't subscribe to. We have to trust that when someone signs up for a service they actually want to sign up for it.

I also understand that in this particular case the customer is claiming that they haven't signed up.

In the three years I've been at Vodafone I have seen literally hundreds of these come through and not one has been shown to be false. Not one. Fair Go sent through well over a hundred and we checked each one and none of them were signed up against their will.

Every single customer did actually sign up.

Both Telecom and Vodafone (and, I would hope Two Degrees when it launches) are signed up to the TCF working party on Premium TXT. We've helped write the code of practice and we implement it and we stand by it. We enforce it every day (you'll see some press over a competition in the Herald that wasn't at all what they told us it would be when they signed on: both Telecom and Vodafone have suspended that number, and we'll refund all the money as it's just a scam).

But we take these kinds of issues very seriously and we do work with the providers to make sure they're above board and open in their sign-up processes and websites so that you get what you expect and not something else.

Cheers

Paul

Paul Brislen
Head of Corporate Communications
Vodafone

http://forum.vodafone.co.nz

savag3

188 posts

Master Geek

#220475 1-Jun-2009 17:49

If it was my account the charges were on I would be asking Vodafone to provide proof that I subscribed to the service. I don't believe Vodafone can charge you for it unless you have actually signed up for the service and the obligation is on them to prove it not the other way around as much as they would like you to believe.
If after notifying Vodafone of the dispute they don't credit the charges you could file a claim with the Disputes Tribunal although the filing fee of $30 would be more than the charges so you would have to want to do it on a matter of principle.

Has anyone else ever wondered why you can have 0900 call barring but you can't bar subscription text services?

ZollyMonsta

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#220479 1-Jun-2009 17:55

I'm afraid, in this instance the customer has not signed up. You can be sure we won't be paying the monies charged for a service we haven't signed up for.

VFNZPaulBrislen

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#220481 1-Jun-2009 17:58

As per the process, if you feel you haven't subscribed, let the provider know. They'll either prove you did or refund your money.

If you didn't, we'll escalate it and find out a: how they got your number and b: why they think you have subscribed. If they aren't following the process we take it very seriously indeed. As I said, we've just shut down one provider that set up a service that ran contrary to the service they'd described to both Telecom and Vodafone prior to launch. That's simply not acceptable.

Cheers

Paul

Paul Brislen
Head of Corporate Communications
Vodafone

http://forum.vodafone.co.nz

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savag3

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#220485 1-Jun-2009 18:06

I note that the TCF code here http://www.tcf.org.nz/content/ebdb5be5-248d-402f-9bcb-08b131a773d7.html contains a complaints procedure which could be used. Also saw that Sybase 365 was on the working party.

ZollyMonsta

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#220491 1-Jun-2009 18:32

PaulBrislen: As per the process, if you feel you haven't subscribed, let the provider know. They'll either prove you did or refund your money.

If you didn't, we'll escalate it and find out a: how they got your number and b: why they think you have subscribed. If they aren't following the process we take it very seriously indeed. As I said, we've just shut down one provider that set up a service that ran contrary to the service they'd described to both Telecom and Vodafone prior to launch. That's simply not acceptable.

Cheers

Paul

Hi Paul,

They could not provide me any information to prove that the service was subscribed to. They kept going around in circles saying 'The subscription is only activated when the mobile number is entered and the PIN code sent via SMS is entered on the website'. As mentioned above, no mobile number was manually entered. A PIN sms was sent just after 5am, then around 90 seconds later a 'confirmation' text was sent saying my wife was now subscribed to the service. No one entered any PIN as we were both asleep.
This seems like a case of covertly subscribing my wife to a service that she did not want.

I kept pressuring them to release details (including IP address of the request) and they would not provide anything, other to say Vodafone would need to request this.

I apologise to all for the thread and my straight-forward comments, but I am well and truly riled up over this, even though it's only $24. It's the principle of it. My wife did not knowingly subscribe to this 'service' and it seems there is nothing we can do (other than going to the disputes tribunal) to have either party make any effort to look into this.

Vodafone has obviously had plenty of complaints regarding these services (either mis-informed subscribers or 'covertly' subscribed customers. I would have thought that Vodafone, being one of the leading communications companies in NZ, would put measures in place to prevent this.

I would suggest you offer people the chance to 'opt out' of these sms services (possibly even block such services unless the customer asks to 'opt in' to recieving them.

My wife and I have been loyal Vodafone customers, on account, for several years. Surely our loyalty would account for something!

Regards,
Grant

mikal

172 posts

Master Geek

#220493 1-Jun-2009 18:47

I think we are all accustomed to the type of service you would normally receive in similar situations.
e.g. Fraudulant activity on your credit card, the Bank refunds asap and does a chargeback.

sbiddle

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#220496 1-Jun-2009 18:53

PaulBrislen: As per the process, if you feel you haven't subscribed, let the provider know. They'll either prove you did or refund your money.

If you didn't, we'll escalate it and find out a: how they got your number and b: why they think you have subscribed. If they aren't following the process we take it very seriously indeed. As I said, we've just shut down one provider that set up a service that ran contrary to the service they'd described to both Telecom and Vodafone prior to launch. That's simply not acceptable.

Cheers

Paul

Did you read MF's post above that has the fine print for the FQ IQ test Paul? If you hunt around there are references to this scam in Aussie - by merely entering the details on Facebook you seem to automatically be signed up, there doesn't appear to be any requirement to send back the double opt in SMS to subscribe yourself.

Don't Vodafone's premium SMS T&C's that require content providers to authenticate the subscriction by double opt insending a response? If this is not happening (despite the fact the IQ test does have fine print detailing the costs) is it in breach of Vodafone's T&C's?

VFNZPaulBrislen

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#220504 1-Jun-2009 19:07

Hi there, Look I can understand your frustration, believe me. But you're asking for the telcos to put in place a process that we already have.

These services are double opt in. That is you have to sign up AND respond to a TXT message to get them started. If that hasn't happened in this case then we will need to escalate it, but as I said early I have yet to see anyone in that position. Every single person who has passed over my desk has indeed signed up for the service on offer.

The service is easy opt-out. I can't think of an easier way of opting out of a TXT service than sending the word STOP back to the number that sent you the TXT. This is also in place today.

If you want to escalate it further there are two things you can do: you can complain directly to the service provider (this is the first thing you should do). If you get no joy from them, ring 777 and tell the call centre rep that you want to escalate this issue to the Premium TXT team. Be firm. Ask for a complaint number so you can follow it up. We will then take the issue up with the service provider and find out a: when the number was subscribed, b: how the number was subscribed, c: whether the process for subscribing and unsubscribing was followed.

If the process wasn't followed there are strong repercussions for the provider.

If, at the end of all that, you still don't have the answer you're looking for, you can of course take the matter up with the Telecommunications Disputes Resolution service. However, the TDR will require you to have followed all those steps first of all before they'll look at the complaint.

Hope that helps, let me know how you get on.

Cheers

Paul

Paul Brislen
Head of Corporate Communications
Vodafone

http://forum.vodafone.co.nz

VFNZPaulBrislen

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#220505 1-Jun-2009 19:09

sbiddle:
PaulBrislen: As per the process, if you feel you haven't subscribed, let the provider know. They'll either prove you did or refund your money.

If you didn't, we'll escalate it and find out a: how they got your number and b: why they think you have subscribed. If they aren't following the process we take it very seriously indeed. As I said, we've just shut down one provider that set up a service that ran contrary to the service they'd described to both Telecom and Vodafone prior to launch. That's simply not acceptable.

Cheers

Paul

Did you read MF's post above that has the fine print for the FQ IQ test Paul? If you hunt around there are references to this scam in Aussie - by merely entering the details on Facebook you seem to automatically be signed up, there doesn't appear to be any requirement to send back the double opt in SMS to subscribe yourself.

Don't Vodafone's premium SMS T&C's that require content providers to authenticate the subscriction by double opt insending a response? If this is not happening (despite the fact the IQ test does have fine print detailing the costs) is it in breach of Vodafone's T&C's?

Yes, our T&C require double opt in. That's not optional.

If that's not happening then we will take things further with the company involved. This MAY include suspending their service and/or refunding customers among other remedies.

Cheers

Paul

Paul Brislen
Head of Corporate Communications
Vodafone

http://forum.vodafone.co.nz

ZollyMonsta

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#220516 1-Jun-2009 19:45

I have just managed to make contact with a 'Riccardo Vallaro | Country Manager | Sybase 365 South Africa'
and have provided him with the mobile number in question so he can investigate. It looks like their official website is actually http://www.sybase.com/mobileservices/

Riccardo says he will investigate with 'Blinck' (which I'm gathering is the sender of the txt messages).

Seems all very confusing, quite a maze of providers.

I will request all the information they find and contact Vodafone when/if I hear from them again.

PenultimateHop

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#220522 1-Jun-2009 19:52

PaulBrislen: while I appreciate your points of view I really don't think you want your telco provider deciding which services you can/can't subscribe to. We have to trust that when someone signs up for a service they actually want to sign up for it.

I am wondering why telcos couldn't offer a "Premium SMS Barring" service, much like toll barring or 900-number barring. This seems like a sensible value-add, particularly where the mobile user might be a child. In this case I think it would be a sensible service to offer.

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