No incentive to upgrade to 4G

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#437775 10-Feb-2011 14:47

ajw: A believe Verizon Wireless are working on a solution for VoLTE.

Verizon: LG Revolution 4G Will Support VoLTE

Should Be Offered Sometime In The Middle Of This Year
by Karl Bode yesterday tags: business · wireless

While Verizon's new LTE network is still blisteringly-fast, so far only USB modem users have access to the network, with LTE-supported smartphones not expected until the middle of this year. For many of those phones, the voice portion of the service will still ride over Verizon's older 3G network -- though Verizon tells CNN that the Voice over LTE (VoLTE) is just now being hammered out and that the LG's Revolution 4G will be the first phone on their network to support VoLTE. The shift from dedicated circuit-switched technology to the VoLTE data protocol is a big deal, and Verizon plans to unveil more detail about their implementation of the protocol next week at the Mobile World Congress in Barcelona, Spain. "High-definition" audio fidelity will be the primary selling point of the evolution, though Verizon notes it still hasn't been made clear if they'll stick to the VoLTE name, or if carriers will choose something new for marketing purposes.

Yip - and VoLTE is just one standard. VoLGA is the other. Both think they have the best solution. With no sign of a single standard we're heading down the Beta vs VHS and HD-DVD vs Blu Ray battle again with competing standards until the one with the biggest market share wins.

ajw

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#437850 10-Feb-2011 16:47

pwner: wow that post really messes with the page formatting

Not wrong. I shall use a link instead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-UTRA#Frequency_bands_and_channel_bandwidths

ajw

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#437887 10-Feb-2011 17:42

Beccara:
sbiddle:
ajw: Internet NZ says Vodafone has no incentive to upgrade to 4G.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/internetnz-telecom-vodafone-has-no-incentive-upgrade-4g-ck-85623

[Moderator edit (MF): come on folks, adding hyperlinks will make easier for others to read]

Lets get something straight, based on the old ITU-R specs there is no such thing as a live 4G network anywhere in the world. "4G" was supposed to deliver 100Mbps from mobile terminals and 1Gbps from fixed terminals. In December the ITU clarified their terminology to avoid confusion in the marketplace.

The 4G networks that are based on current LTE and WiMAX deployments in the USA that won't offer speeds any greater than what is currently available from Vodafone's Dual Carrier network, and what Telecom will be able to offer when they switch on dual cariers on the XT network. Both networks also have the ability to deliver MIMO which will once again increase speeds.

Quite frankly deploying a current generation LTE network seems seems a very risky move. The LTE Advanced spec isn't even going to be finalised until 2012 - what point is there deploying something using a draft spec that will be obsolete and require significant upgrades? Surely we're better off with current 3G technology that is still has a roadmap offering significant upgrades (168Mbps has just been demonstrated) until a LTE spec is finalised?

Oh and don't forget LTE voice. There still isn't even an agreement on how this will be offered from mobile devices, hence all LTE devices requiring a legacy CDMA, GSM or WCDMA network for voice calling.

The advancements coming out for 3g are just channel bonding, Dual-Carrier and the 168mbps demo are both nothing more than channel bonding. LTE is faster speeds ( 300+mbit for fixed 4x4 antenna unit's) using spectrum better and offering better flexibility (LTE can run on 1.4mhz of spectrum). To say that LTE is as slow as 3g is just flat out wrong, TeliaSonera running in 10mhz has dongle speeds of 40mbit down which I'm pretty sure is a 1x1 antenna setup. LTE's spectral efficiency is nearly double that of current 3g tech, Reality cuts this down a little.

And according to this article in Computerworld data speeds are better with 2 degrees.

http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/telecommunications/mobile-calling-with-voip-viber-and-an-ipad

Data speeds

Computerworld measured mobile data speeds on each of the three networks using MicoSIMs in an iPad. The methodology was based on a similar test carried out by PC World in Australia, which measured the performance of four mobile networks across the Tasman using a microSIM in an iPad in June last year. As the table and speedtest data (below) shows, 2degrees was the fastest network and Telecom XT was the worst performer, and it wasn’t only at Auckland CBD location. We also tested the networks in Browns Bay and found similar results.

Note: 2degrees only has its own mobile broadband network in Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch and Queenstown, outside of these cities 2degrees customers roam on Vodafone’s 3G network.

DonGould

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#437894 10-Feb-2011 18:01

2Talk guys couldn't believe my call quality this afternoon talking to him on 2Deg 3G in chch from my 8150.

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#438007 10-Feb-2011 21:29

@ Beccara

The advancements coming out for 3g are just channel bonding, Dual-Carrier and the 168mbps demo are both nothing more than channel bonding. LTE is faster speeds ( 300+mbit for fixed 4x4 antenna unit's) using spectrum better and offering better flexibility (LTE can run on 1.4mhz of spectrum). To say that LTE is as slow as 3g is just flat out wrong, TeliaSonera running in 10mhz has dongle speeds of 40mbit down which I'm pretty sure is a 1x1 antenna setup. LTE's spectral efficiency is nearly double that of current 3g tech, Reality cuts this down a little.

Another article from today's computer world.

http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/news/devils-in-the-detail-when-comparing-rbi-bids?opendocument&utm_source=topnews&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=topnews

OpenGate’s technology in Australia

Last week in Australia, Vividwireless announced it could be offering customers services via TD-LTE (4G) within 18 months, after a two-month trial.

“Vividwireless found TD-LTE to be more mature than it had expected and is now mulling blending the technology straight into its planned deployment in Sydney, Melbourne and other eastern capitals,” the company says.

Vividwireless owns 98MHz in the 2.3GHz band and more than 90MHz in the 3.4GHz band.

It notes that the ecosystem is less well developed for 4G in suitable devices.

A report this month by research company IHSiSuppli forecasts 303 million LTE (long term evolution) subscribers worldwide by 2014. The researcher says LTE will become the dominant 4G technology by 2012, with more than double the number of users of the alternative WIMAX.

OpenGate said at its December presentation that India and China were committed to 4G. In Europe, Germany has already auctioned spectrum for 4G.

munchkin

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#438070 10-Feb-2011 23:59

ajw:

And according to this article in Computerworld data speeds are better with 2 degrees.

http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/telecommunications/mobile-calling-with-voip-viber-and-an-ipad

[...] etc

Edit: I had a fair amount written down here regarding factors which could affect network performance, the end-user device etc, but I'll just say "That whole thing was conducted on an iPad" and leave it at that, really. Some of you will figure out what I mean when you look at the upload speeds on that chart, others will need me to tell them the iPad doesn't have the greatest hardware.

As I keep thinking, that link really has nothing to do with a conversation about 4G at all.

johnr

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#438082 11-Feb-2011 01:23

munchkin:
ajw:

And according to this article in Computerworld data speeds are better with 2 degrees.

http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/telecommunications/mobile-calling-with-voip-viber-and-an-ipad

[...] etc

Edit: I had a fair amount written down here regarding factors which could affect network performance, the end-user device etc, but I'll just say "That whole thing was conducted on an iPad" and leave it at that, really. Some of you will figure out what I mean when you look at the upload speeds on that chart, others will need me to tell them the iPad doesn't have the greatest hardware.

As I keep thinking, that link really has nothing to do with a conversation about 4G at all.

This is what I get on my Vodem in Auckland CBD

http://ow.ly/i/7sju

John

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khull

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#438097 11-Feb-2011 06:39

can't wait to sign up for my 4g plan with 100mb monthly limit. ahem - I think not.

having returned overseas from a 3rd world country, I could get unlimited 3G internet for only about $6 a week. I think I'll just hold out for just a bit longer - walk down the street in NZ and most people will have problems articulating what the true definition of 4g is.

johnr

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#438117 11-Feb-2011 08:07

khull: can't wait to sign up for my 4g plan with 100mb monthly limit. ahem - I think not.

having returned overseas from a 3rd world country, I could get unlimited 3G internet for only about $6 a week. I think I'll just hold out for just a bit longer - walk down the street in NZ and most people will have problems articulating what the true definition of 4g is.

What Country?
What Network?

Provided ' unlimited ' internet for $6 a week

Lets see how limited unlimited is

lchiu7

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#438339 11-Feb-2011 16:10

A believe Verizon Wireless are working on a solution for VoLTE.

Verizon: LG Revolution 4G Will Support VoLTE

Should Be Offered Sometime In The Middle Of This Year
by Karl Bode yesterday tags: business · wireless

While Verizon's new LTE network is still blisteringly-fast, so far only USB modem users have access to the network, with LTE-supported smartphones not expected until the middle of this year. For many of those phones, the voice portion of the service will still ride over Verizon's older 3G network -- though Verizon tells CNN that the Voice over LTE (VoLTE) is just now being hammered out and that the LG's Revolution 4G will be the first phone on their network to support VoLTE. The shift from dedicated circuit-switched technology to the VoLTE data protocol is a big deal, and Verizon plans to unveil more detail about their implementation of the protocol next week at the Mobile World Congress in Barcelona, Spain. "High-definition" audio fidelity will be the primary selling point of the evolution, though Verizon notes it still hasn't been made clear if they'll stick to the VoLTE name, or if carriers will choose something new for marketing purposes.

I was using the Verizon modem device when I was in the US earlier (a friend had one). It wasn't so much a USB device but a standalone wireless device with a builtin wifi transmitter. So we just connected to it over wifi and of course it made a 3G cellular connection.

When we were talking to the Verizon folks at CES about their 4G devices, they indicated that the modems would work the same way - that is talk 4G over the network and provide access over wifi.

So assuming some loss of speed over wifi, you could still achieve some pretty decent speeds using their device and a 3G phone. That's saves an investment in a new handset. I would be quite happy using such a device since they small and easy to connect.

Staying in Wellington. Check out my AirBnB in the Wellington CBD. https://www.airbnb.co.nz/h/wellycbd PM me and mention GZ to get a 15% discount and no AirBnB charges.

ajw

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#438340 11-Feb-2011 16:15

johnr:
munchkin:
ajw:

And according to this article in Computerworld data speeds are better with 2 degrees.

http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/telecommunications/mobile-calling-with-voip-viber-and-an-ipad

[...] etc

Edit: I had a fair amount written down here regarding factors which could affect network performance, the end-user device etc, but I'll just say "That whole thing was conducted on an iPad" and leave it at that, really. Some of you will figure out what I mean when you look at the upload speeds on that chart, others will need me to tell them the iPad doesn't have the greatest hardware.

As I keep thinking, that link really has nothing to do with a conversation about 4G at all.

This is what I get on my Vodem in Auckland CBD

http://ow.ly/i/7sju

John

John how many users on that cellsite and what are the real world actual speeds that could be expected.

johnr

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#438348 11-Feb-2011 16:39

ajw:
johnr:
munchkin:
ajw:

And according to this article in Computerworld data speeds are better with 2 degrees.

http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/telecommunications/mobile-calling-with-voip-viber-and-an-ipad

[...] etc

Edit: I had a fair amount written down here regarding factors which could affect network performance, the end-user device etc, but I'll just say "That whole thing was conducted on an iPad" and leave it at that, really. Some of you will figure out what I mean when you look at the upload speeds on that chart, others will need me to tell them the iPad doesn't have the greatest hardware.

As I keep thinking, that link really has nothing to do with a conversation about 4G at all.

This is what I get on my Vodem in Auckland CBD

http://ow.ly/i/7sju

John

John how many users on that cellsite and what are the real world actual speeds that could be expected.

That speedtest was done on the live network with 3G users on it in Auckland CBD on a busy 3G cell

John

DonGould

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#438350 11-Feb-2011 16:47

johnr: That speedtest was done on the live network with 3G users on it in Auckland CBD on a busy 3G cell

John are you able to tell us what that means?

eg....

What capacity does a cell typically carry (a rough indication would be cool, I'm not asking you to tell us how VF load their network, though I'm not sure why that would be CIC info).

What does busy mean?

Of the capacity, how much is in use to be considered 'busy'?

Also what do you call busy? ie, are we just talking talking and texting, or data, or lots of all that?

D

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ajw

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#438365 11-Feb-2011 17:26

From http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/news/2degrees-well-ahead-in-3g-speed-analyst

2degrees well ahead in 3G speed: analyst

In an analysis carried out by telecommunications consultant Jonathan Brewer, 2degrees was shown to be well ahead in the bandwidth capacity it allotted each subscriber on its mobile data network.

2degrees
Subscriber base – 206,000
Bandwidth per subscriber – 101 kbps download/ 2.7 kbps upload

Telecom XT
Subscriber base – 1,010,000
Bandwidth per subscriber – 85 kbps download/ 22.6 kbps upload

Vodafone
Subscriber base – 2,465,000
Bandwidth per subscriber – 63.8 kbps download/12.8 kbps upload

“Vodafone is tricky because they have the oldest network by a long shot, although they have been aggressively upgrading it. They have the fastest new technology and the largest number of towers, but they also have the largest user base. If they contend that not all of their subscribers are 3G capable, then perhaps they can offer up a number of how many are?," he says.

[Moderator edit (MF): please do not copy and paste entire article, due to copyright]

sbiddle

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#438371 11-Feb-2011 17:43

For somebody as smart as Jonathan I'm surprised he's put his name to such flawed methodology. That's a horrible piece of work.

You can't factor in an average throughput per user across a network like the way he has done.

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