No incentive to upgrade to 4G

Forums › One New Zealand (including Vodafone, WxC, Farmside) › No incentive to upgrade to 4G

ajw

1932 posts

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#77047 10-Feb-2011 09:13

Internet NZ says Vodafone has no incentive to upgrade to 4G.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/internetnz-telecom-vodafone-has-no-incentive-upgrade-4g-ck-85623

[Moderator edit (MF): come on folks, adding hyperlinks will make easier for others to read]

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#437628 10-Feb-2011 09:32

Who cares? - Our 3G networks are up there with the best, the dual carrier isn't even finished yet. freeview won't be turned off for a wile yet, 4G wont be commercially viable till at least 2015... so who really cares?

DonGould

3892 posts

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#437629 10-Feb-2011 09:32

I'm quiet confused.

Why isn't Kordia bring a 4G network to us in the city now if it has the freq space and the technology?

Is this just a govt department wanting a hand out from another govt dept because the offer is on the table or are these people actually serious about delivering 1's and 0's to people?

The Vodafone/Telecom deal is great from my pov. I might be able to use my mobile in more places and so will other people.

Next we need to get focused on a plan to deliver bb to rural people, but at least more people will get better cheaper mobile calling now that they haven't had in the past.

$285m in to mobile calling in rural areas is great news for tourism and a clear election winner!

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DonGould

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#437633 10-Feb-2011 09:37

SteveON: Who cares - freeview won't be turned off for a wile yet

Ya. I'm still not convinced that it's even going to get turned off. I'm still seeing a truck load of homes with rabbits ears on the second TV in the house.

I still haven't seen a clear plan for low income earners to get assistance with putting in a TV antenna and in Christchurch right now there's a lot less places to connect it to than there was 6 months ago!

I wouldn't like to be the PM who turns off the kids or the wifes TV.... would have to be done at the start of an election cycle so people forget the pain before they vote next. When's it timed for?

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sbiddle

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#437658 10-Feb-2011 10:10

ajw: Internet NZ says Vodafone has no incentive to upgrade to 4G.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/internetnz-telecom-vodafone-has-no-incentive-upgrade-4g-ck-85623

[Moderator edit (MF): come on folks, adding hyperlinks will make easier for others to read]

Lets get something straight, based on the old ITU-R specs there is no such thing as a live 4G network anywhere in the world. "4G" was supposed to deliver 100Mbps from mobile terminals and 1Gbps from fixed terminals. In December the ITU clarified their terminology to avoid confusion in the marketplace.

The 4G networks that are based on current LTE and WiMAX deployments in the USA that won't offer speeds any greater than what is currently available from Vodafone's Dual Carrier network, and what Telecom will be able to offer when they switch on dual cariers on the XT network. Both networks also have the ability to deliver MIMO which will once again increase speeds.

Quite frankly deploying a current generation LTE network seems seems a very risky move. The LTE Advanced spec isn't even going to be finalised until 2012 - what point is there deploying something using a draft spec that will be obsolete and require significant upgrades? Surely we're better off with current 3G technology that is still has a roadmap offering significant upgrades (168Mbps has just been demonstrated) until a LTE spec is finalised?

Oh and don't forget LTE voice. There still isn't even an agreement on how this will be offered from mobile devices, hence all LTE devices requiring a legacy CDMA, GSM or WCDMA network for voice calling.

sbiddle

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#437663 10-Feb-2011 10:20

And don't forget that LTE doesn't need 700MHz. There is nothing stopping Vodafone/Telecom from deploying LTE using existing 900MHz and 1800MHz spectrum that they already have MR's for.

Beccara

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#437667 10-Feb-2011 10:52

sbiddle:
ajw: Internet NZ says Vodafone has no incentive to upgrade to 4G.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/internetnz-telecom-vodafone-has-no-incentive-upgrade-4g-ck-85623

[Moderator edit (MF): come on folks, adding hyperlinks will make easier for others to read]

Lets get something straight, based on the old ITU-R specs there is no such thing as a live 4G network anywhere in the world. "4G" was supposed to deliver 100Mbps from mobile terminals and 1Gbps from fixed terminals. In December the ITU clarified their terminology to avoid confusion in the marketplace.

The 4G networks that are based on current LTE and WiMAX deployments in the USA that won't offer speeds any greater than what is currently available from Vodafone's Dual Carrier network, and what Telecom will be able to offer when they switch on dual cariers on the XT network. Both networks also have the ability to deliver MIMO which will once again increase speeds.

Quite frankly deploying a current generation LTE network seems seems a very risky move. The LTE Advanced spec isn't even going to be finalised until 2012 - what point is there deploying something using a draft spec that will be obsolete and require significant upgrades? Surely we're better off with current 3G technology that is still has a roadmap offering significant upgrades (168Mbps has just been demonstrated) until a LTE spec is finalised?

Oh and don't forget LTE voice. There still isn't even an agreement on how this will be offered from mobile devices, hence all LTE devices requiring a legacy CDMA, GSM or WCDMA network for voice calling.

The advancements coming out for 3g are just channel bonding, Dual-Carrier and the 168mbps demo are both nothing more than channel bonding. LTE is faster speeds ( 300+mbit for fixed 4x4 antenna unit's) using spectrum better and offering better flexibility (LTE can run on 1.4mhz of spectrum). To say that LTE is as slow as 3g is just flat out wrong, TeliaSonera running in 10mhz has dongle speeds of 40mbit down which I'm pretty sure is a 1x1 antenna setup. LTE's spectral efficiency is nearly double that of current 3g tech, Reality cuts this down a little.

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zombiewan

44 posts

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#437674 10-Feb-2011 11:13

Beccara:

The advancements coming out for 3g are just channel bonding, Dual-Carrier and the 168mbps demo are both nothing more than channel bonding. LTE is faster speeds ( 300+mbit for fixed 4x4 antenna unit's) using spectrum better and offering better flexibility (LTE can run on 1.4mhz of spectrum). To say that LTE is as slow as 3g is just flat out wrong, TeliaSonera running in 10mhz has dongle speeds of 40mbit down which I'm pretty sure is a 1x1 antenna setup. LTE's spectral efficiency is nearly double that of current 3g tech, Reality cuts this down a little.

I don't think Steve was saying that LTE is the same speed as 3G. Quite the opposite i believe. He goes on to say that there isn't a network in the world that meets the current criteria of a 4G network. 100m/bit to the device and 1g/bit from a fixed terminal. A far cry from the 40mbit TeliaSonera is currently delivering

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DonGould

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#437683 10-Feb-2011 11:37

Beccara: TeliaSonera running in 10mhz has dongle speeds of 40mbit down which I'm pretty sure is a 1x1 antenna setup. LTE's spectral efficiency is nearly double that of current 3g tech, Reality cuts this down a little.

1. What's the upload speed?
2. Is that 10mhz space shared with other users at the same time? If so, how many users can share it per trasmitter?
3. Can you further qualifiy what 'reality' really means? I was reading a motorola paper the other day that said to expect 8mbits from LTE.
4. What range is that over for a dongle? Do I need to be sitting with in 500m of the tower to make that useful?

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pwner

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#437698 10-Feb-2011 12:24

sbiddle: And don't forget that LTE doesn't need 700MHz. There is nothing stopping Vodafone/Telecom from deploying LTE using existing 900MHz and 1800MHz spectrum that they already have MR's for.

there is one big thing stopping them...... devices, while they may have the spectrum they will need to fit in with the international devices makers preferences for devices. Even OpenGate would have the issue of trying to get devices for what will probably be the unpopular frequencies for LTE.

Globally the frequencies being looked at for LTE vary a lot but the major interest is in 700Mhz due to the fact it travels far and through objects and 1800Mhz for urban areas to increase capacity and reuse most European GSM operators existing spectrum.

Personally i think that once all the RBI tenders started looking like fibre + wireless solutions they should have broken the tender in too and let FX, TelstraClear, Telecom, OPTO, Kordia tender for the fibre to rural hubs section. then the access component would be separate. that way you can isolate differences like UMTS vs LTE preferences to the wireless space only and not affect who is putting the fibre in because of alliances.

and my 2c on 4G, LTE was meant to be 4G and is significantly different to UMTS to warrant the generation change, but then some academics decided to move the goal posts and cause all this confusion.

Any posts are personal comments and not that of my employer

zombiewan

44 posts

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#437709 10-Feb-2011 12:46

DonGould:
3. Can you further qualifiy what 'reality' really means? I was reading a motorola paper the other day that said to expect 8mbits from LTE.

I can already achieve these speeds now!

pwner

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#437714 10-Feb-2011 12:50

zombiewan:
DonGould:
3. Can you further qualifiy what 'reality' really means? I was reading a motorola paper the other day that said to expect 8mbits from LTE.

I can already achieve these speeds now!

then again they say to expect 1.5-2mbits for the current HSPA+ technology, so the fact you can do a quick burst higher than that right now doesn't really matter.

LTE will support burst rates of greater than 8mbit, but on a normally loaded network you should on average get 8mbit which is pretty damn quick. i think 1080p HD is about a 4mbit stream (or is it 8mbit?)

Any posts are personal comments and not that of my employer

DonGould

3892 posts

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#437720 10-Feb-2011 13:00

pwner: LTE will support burst rates of greater than 8mbit, but on a normally loaded network you should on average get 8mbit which is pretty damn quick. i think 1080p HD is about a 4mbit stream (or is it 8mbit?)

What does all that mean though?

How many concurrent users can you load 8mbit on a tower?

In my area, for example, there's ~3k homes within the range of the local towers. How many of those users will be able to pull 8mbit?

That's 24Gbit from the tower, not I know you can contend this stuff and clearly not every home is going to be watching a movie at once and not all homes will use 2Deg, some will use T, VF, etc...

I also know that in rural areas the tower isn't going to be supporting 3k users/homes, but what's a bit more real world?

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sbiddle

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#437732 10-Feb-2011 13:19

pwner: LTE will support burst rates of greater than 8mbit, but on a normally loaded network you should on average get 8mbit which is pretty damn quick. i think 1080p HD is about a 4mbit stream (or is it 8mbit?)

1080p is typically around 24Mbps. 1080i around 10Mbps.

coffeebaron

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#437736 10-Feb-2011 13:25

Vodafone & Telecom have no incentive to upgrade to 3G. GPRS works just fine :)

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ajw

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#437772 10-Feb-2011 14:43

sbiddle:
ajw: Internet NZ says Vodafone has no incentive to upgrade to 4G.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/internetnz-telecom-vodafone-has-no-incentive-upgrade-4g-ck-85623

[Moderator edit (MF): come on folks, adding hyperlinks will make easier for others to read]

Lets get something straight, based on the old ITU-R specs there is no such thing as a live 4G network anywhere in the world. "4G" was supposed to deliver 100Mbps from mobile terminals and 1Gbps from fixed terminals. In December the ITU clarified their terminology to avoid confusion in the marketplace.

The 4G networks that are based on current LTE and WiMAX deployments in the USA that won't offer speeds any greater than what is currently available from Vodafone's Dual Carrier network, and what Telecom will be able to offer when they switch on dual cariers on the XT network. Both networks also have the ability to deliver MIMO which will once again increase speeds.

Quite frankly deploying a current generation LTE network seems seems a very risky move. The LTE Advanced spec isn't even going to be finalised until 2012 - what point is there deploying something using a draft spec that will be obsolete and require significant upgrades? Surely we're better off with current 3G technology that is still has a roadmap offering significant upgrades (168Mbps has just been demonstrated) until a LTE spec is finalised?

Oh and don't forget LTE voice. There still isn't even an agreement on how this will be offered from mobile devices, hence all LTE devices requiring a legacy CDMA, GSM or WCDMA network for voice calling.

A believe Verizon Wireless are working on a solution for VoLTE.

Verizon: LG Revolution 4G Will Support VoLTE

Should Be Offered Sometime In The Middle Of This Year
by Karl Bode yesterday tags: business · wireless

While Verizon's new LTE network is still blisteringly-fast, so far only USB modem users have access to the network, with LTE-supported smartphones not expected until the middle of this year. For many of those phones, the voice portion of the service will still ride over Verizon's older 3G network -- though Verizon tells CNN that the Voice over LTE (VoLTE) is just now being hammered out and that the LG's Revolution 4G will be the first phone on their network to support VoLTE. The shift from dedicated circuit-switched technology to the VoLTE data protocol is a big deal, and Verizon plans to unveil more detail about their implementation of the protocol next week at the Mobile World Congress in Barcelona, Spain. "High-definition" audio fidelity will be the primary selling point of the evolution, though Verizon notes it still hasn't been made clear if they'll stick to the VoLTE name, or if carriers will choose something new for marketing purposes.

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