NEAX migration to Baseband IP?

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tim0001

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#288640 14-Jul-2021 14:37

We had a call today from Vodafone to tell us that they are going to move our landline phone to VoIP on a new modem that they are providing. (I guess this is the NEAX migration. ) The problem is that our internet is slow and has very high packet loss (ISAM with restricted backhaul, 10Mb/s backhaul shared by 400 people at peak times). We've got no mobile coverage so a landline is important to us.

I’ve asked whether we could be migrated to Baseband IP instead, but was told no. Does this mean that we will have to move to another provider? (Is Spark required to provide Baseband IP?)

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#2744157 14-Jul-2021 16:18

Baseband IP is an offering from Chorus that the providers can take up, but aren't required to offer.

Everyone is moving to VoIP, and all Baseband IP is doing is letting Chorus charge your provider to send VoIP down your copper pair, which no provider is interested in doing if they have other options. If you're on an old ISAM site with restricted backhaul, I'd suspect you'll also be on a site with voice being delivered over PCM or something similar, and not directly from the equipment in the exchange, so I wouldn't expect you to be impacted by the NEAX withdrawl. Maybe try contacting some other providers to see what they can offer you, it sounds like Vodafone just don't want to pay Spark or Chorus anymore for your PSTN services.

Anything I say is the ramblings of an ill informed, opinionated so-and-so, and not representative of any of my past, present or future employers, and is also probably best disregarded.

yitz

2082 posts

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#2744167 14-Jul-2021 16:43

toejam316:

If you're on an old ISAM site with restricted backhaul, I'd suspect you'll also be on a site with voice being delivered over PCM or something similar, and not directly from the equipment in the exchange, so I wouldn't expect you to be impacted by the NEAX withdrawl. Maybe try contacting some other providers to see what they can offer you, it sounds like Vodafone just don't want to pay Spark or Chorus anymore for your PSTN services.

Surely the point of replacing Conklins with ISAMs is to remove the dependency on legacy PCM and the NEAXs (i.e. to allow Chorus to deliver data and voice circuits independent of Spark).

toejam316

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#2744208 14-Jul-2021 17:41

Nope - voice has not been the realm of Chorus, before Baseband IP.
The point of the Conklin replacement was to get rid of the old ATM network (I think, I forget what it actually was as I never touched it) that Spark ran, as part of the business separation.

Anything I say is the ramblings of an ill informed, opinionated so-and-so, and not representative of any of my past, present or future employers, and is also probably best disregarded.

nztim

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#2744227 14-Jul-2021 18:35

Pinging @Greepzone from Vodafone

Tell her that VOIP over your slow connection is not suitable, Vodafone don't proactively offer Baseband IP but will roll over certain customers

Other providers proactively offer it

Any views expressed on these forums are my own and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.

spacedog

482 posts

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#2744985 16-Jul-2021 08:30

@tim0001 Did you get the feeling that you were being contacted generically or specifically? We got an email indicating we were going to lose our voice service in the spring of this year which triggered quite a bit of panic at our end about losing our analog lines since we are in a similar situation with a marginal ADSL connection (7mbps/1mpbs) and 3 PSTN lines that we rely on due to poor/non-existent mobile coverage at our location.

We looked into switching the ADSL to NOW with BBIP, but the hitch for us is that we rely on our SureSignal connected to our ADSL to keep our Vodafone mobiles working. So we decided to wait (a.k.a. praying) that Vodafone finally delivers Voice over WiFi so that we could retire the SureSignal and still be able to receive calls on our mobiles and then make the switch to BBIP and NOW.

However, concurrent to this my Vodafone account manager did some further digging and advised that our initial notification was part of a 'general notification' and advised that Chorus had relaxed the dates on terminating the analog services and we would continue to receive both our copper phone lines and ADSL for an unspecified amount of time.

Naturally, I have almost no confidence in what is being communicated to us. We have received more inaccurate and untrue information from Chorus and Vodafone over the last three years than true and accurate information (e.g. being given a letter drop being told the fibre they just laid across our driveway would give us access to fibre and then being told, "Ooops! Sorry we shouldn't have sent that letter! That's only backhaul, but you can tap into it for the princely sum of $103,000).

This leads me to only guess that there is some significant internal 'thrashing about' within Chorus/Vodafone and other providers as to what they are going to do about rural and underserved customers that no one wants to spend money on proper infrastructure upgrades and network expansion.

Long story short - my opinion is that the information you are receiving in your situation could be questionable or highly changeable. At the moment, I'm just waiting until I basically get cut-off and then I'll probably be directly in contact with my lawyers and the commerce commission. Fun and games!

nztim

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#2745068 16-Jul-2021 09:45

Just a reminder Spark own the NEAX not Chorus and they will eventually switch it off, and any services remaining on there at the time will be relinquished there is no if buts or maybes about this it will happen.

Going to the commerce commission will do nothing they have already set out their guidelines on this which only state that in areas without fibre the copper wires in the ground have to be available to RSPs to provide service, It is up to the individual RSPs to choose what services to put onto that copper wire.

For example it does not require Spark to keep a 40 year old NEAX switch running nor does require Vodafone or any other RSP to provide Baseband IP voice, That is a choice they get to make themselves.

So where does that leave you? The Customer?

Vote with your money! Take your money to an RSP which will meet your needs.

@spacedog I have already recommended to you to move all your voice/broadband to NOW BBIP and keep a Vodafone naked DSL for your SureSignal

@tim0001 your cabinet doesn’t have ISAM-V cards so BBIP may not be an option anyway but as per my DM it is sometimes possible from the exchange so talk to someone

Fighting the Big RSPs will get you no where, they are not bound by any regulation on what services they do or don’t offer, it is their choice

——- Excuse mobile phone typos

EDIT: Typos Fixed.

Any views expressed on these forums are my own and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.

dt

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#2745076 16-Jul-2021 10:08

spacedog:

We looked into switching the ADSL to NOW with BBIP, but the hitch for us is that we rely on our SureSignal connected to our ADSL to keep our Vodafone mobiles working.

Not sure if your circumstances are different to anyone elses but Sure signals will work with any provider now. Im using one with Orcon and my old boss is using one with Compass.

They were locked to vodafones network once upon a time but that changed quite a few years back as far as im aware.

So if thats the only thing holding you back im confident you'll be able to move no problems.

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tim0001

265 posts

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#2745174 16-Jul-2021 14:04

@spacedog I think we may have been randomly selected for the “upgrade”. They told me that they were preemptively migrating lines so that there was no last minute rush.

Its interesting that they are going to remove your voice services, yet they wanted to migrate us onto something that won’t work (AFAIK). (I’m assuming that they won’t be using EUBA 40 with real time COS.)

Greepzone

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One NZ

#2745195 16-Jul-2021 14:31

tim0001:

We had a call today from Vodafone to tell us that they are going to move our landline phone to VoIP on a new modem that they are providing. (I guess this is the NEAX migration. ) The problem is that our internet is slow and has very high packet loss (ISAM with restricted backhaul, 10Mb/s backhaul shared by 400 people at peak times). We've got no mobile coverage so a landline is important to us.

I’ve asked whether we could be migrated to Baseband IP instead, but was told no. Does this mean that we will have to move to another provider? (Is Spark required to provide Baseband IP?)

Hi @tim0001

Can you PM me the line / account number so I can check the options? They vary based on location, switch / exchange, coverage and where it is on the PSTN closure and Copper closure roadmap (note that we don't have the entire roadmap for either of these as they're still being worked through at the respective carriers).

For example - If you're on a NEAX which is rolling to IMS and you've not shifted to VoIP, you may be able to roll over to BBIP but it would be temporary if you're in an area where copper is being withdrawn. We'd prefer in that scenario to move you to Fibre and VoIP so you aren't having to make two shifts. We've had our own IP Voice for 10+ years which also presents as analogue, but where BBIP converts at the cabinet, we convert at the modem. It would behave the same as BBIP in terms of performance over copper.

If BBIP isn't an option, it may be that you're in an exchange which is being decommissioned (and not replaced with IMS) - although this would be in a fibre saturated area.

wlgspotter

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#2745210 16-Jul-2021 15:05

toejam316: Nope - voice has not been the realm of Chorus, before Baseband IP.
The point of the Conklin replacement was to get rid of the old ATM network (I think, I forget what it actually was as I never touched it) that Spark ran, as part of the business separation.

Maybe a bit OT here, but...

And not 100% sure about the business separation part, it was a while ago and my memory is pretty vague... But in any case the Conklin replacement was indeed the next step up to retire the ATM network and the ASAMs and also the ATM-based BRAS, as the Conkilns were indeed hosted off the ASAMs...

yitz

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#2745212 16-Jul-2021 15:09

Greepzone: [..] where BBIP converts at the cabinet, we convert at the modem. It would behave the same as BBIP in terms of performance over copper. [..]

I think the whole idea is to convert at the cabinet in order to avoid using any of the DSL bandwidth for voice but rather utilise copper baseband i.e. POTS frequencies.

After the fight for naked DSL who knew clothed DSL would be so hard to come by 😆

Greepzone

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One NZ

#2745239 16-Jul-2021 16:33

@tim0001 The team has had a look, this switch is on the roadmap for POTS closure, so it's the PSTN switch closure rather than the NEAX-IMS migration. You can roll VoIP over DSL, or yes BBIP (much of a muchness) could be an option with some providers.

SomeoneSomewhere

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#2745242 16-Jul-2021 16:43

yitz:

Greepzone: [..] where BBIP converts at the cabinet, we convert at the modem. It would behave the same as BBIP in terms of performance over copper. [..]

I think the whole idea is to convert at the cabinet in order to avoid using any of the DSL bandwidth for voice but rather utilise copper baseband i.e. POTS frequencies.

After the fight for naked DSL who knew clothed DSL would be so hard to come by 😆

Of course, if it's the ISAM backhaul that's constrained not the actual ADSL lines, then this will just put more demand on that bandwidth. QoS will help ensure the voice traffic get through but it's just going to limit the internet more.

yitz

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#2745246 16-Jul-2021 17:17

SomeoneSomewhere:

Of course, if it's the ISAM backhaul that's constrained not the actual ADSL lines, then this will just put more demand on that bandwidth. QoS will help ensure the voice traffic get through but it's just going to limit the internet more.

At least that would be independent of Spark... I'm guessing Chorus do not own the PCM cabinets which digitise voice and transport back to NEAX otherwise they could host the POTS cards back somewhere more centrally?

toejam316

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#2745251 16-Jul-2021 17:42

I believe the PCM hardware is Chorus' equipment, including the bearers and cards on either end. General rule of thumb I run with is the MDF and beyond belongs to Chorus, and EN and back belongs to Spark.

Anything I say is the ramblings of an ill informed, opinionated so-and-so, and not representative of any of my past, present or future employers, and is also probably best disregarded.

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