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Hawkes Bay
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Topic # 4609 10-Aug-2005 08:16
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timbo: Interesting exclusion of VoIP under the pricing on this page:
http://www.vodafone.co.nz/vlive/3g/pricing_offers.jsp?item=3gpricing
Term #7 says: The use of Vodafone Mobile Connect for Voice over IP (VoIP) is excluded.
This must be aimed at Skype - and here's why:
Skype uses about 1/4 (.25) MB per minute (based on 30kbps - my best estimate). So the cost per minute therefore depends on what you are paying for data.
At $149 per Gigabyte that is 14.5c/MB or 3.6c per minute!
At $99 per 500MB that is 19.8c/MB or 4.95c per minute!
I wonder if this is just a legal exclusion, or if VoIP is blocked?

I thought i would start another thread seeing as this is kinda of opposite to the "Voda 3G up and working topic"

So they dont want you using Skype over 3G.

Is Vodafone suddenly censoring the internet?
Does it hold any weight?
Have they got the technical capability to block it?
Have they got the legal right to block it?
Shouldnt they be doing something useful like specifically disallowing kiddie pr0n or black hat hacking?
Who else is doing this?
What are your views?

[edit - spelling]




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Hawkes Bay
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  Reply # 17874 10-Aug-2005 08:19
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And yes - of course I can see why they are doing it - and it wouldnt surprise me if Telecom did the same thing (but it would disappoint me).

But would that much revenue -really- be cannibalised? Or are they just hitting the early adopters, techos, geeks and nerds out of the game too early, when these are the people who make technology like this a commercial success for these big companies.

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Reply # 17887 10-Aug-2005 09:47
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I think it is a narrow minded view probably driven by limited data capacity that could be sucked up with Skype users. My take is this - Skype uses data which free's up voice channels for other users. Therefore its a give and take.

Looks like they will block port 443 and anything other than HTTP on port 80. Using an external HTTPS/SSL proxy would get around it and Voda would not have a clue what you are up to.


 
 
 
 


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Reply # 17888 10-Aug-2005 09:48
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Thanks for starting new thread.

What Skypye have done is take away even voice switching from the network and put it on the internet as a service. This is the fulfillment of the network as a 'dumb pipe'. Network operators obviously want to resist this and maintain intelligence in the network.

Mobile operators look at ISP's and think that they never actually got much value out of their services - and now it looking increasingly likely that only ISP's that are connected to Telco's will survive. So mobile operators want to extract more value from their 'pipes'.

Ironically future releases of 3G (UMTS) will become all IP, even voice and video calling - but there will be QoS used to manage the different types of connection.

But the big question to me is whether users find it acceptable that their ISP (because a mobile operator's data service is an ISP service) controls which bits of the internet they can use. What would be the outcry if fixed ISP's blocked Skype?

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Reply # 17890 10-Aug-2005 09:58
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timbo: ... This is the fulfillment of the network as a 'dumb pipe'. Network operators obviously want to resist this and maintain intelligence in the network.

But the big question to me is whether users find it acceptable that their ISP (because a mobile operator's data service is an ISP service) controls which bits of the internet they can use. What would be the outcry if fixed ISP's blocked Skype?
The problem is that users are still on the old mindset of "telco = line providers" and they use what the operators offer without making a distinction, and happy with that.

So, if operators have voice, text communication, multimedia communication and a walled garden with DRM built-in (Vodafone live! or O2 Active or T-Mobile Zones) average users are happy and think this is all they can get.

Early adopters utilising the new network resources available to its maximum are small numbers compared with the mass of users. Current smart devices cost a lot compared with feature phones that are made to order and specifications dictated by mobile operators. The number is to small to be an "outcry" at the moment.

We saw this happening with POTS and xDSL/cable providers. It takes time.






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Reply # 17896 10-Aug-2005 10:37
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freitasm: The problem is that users are still on the old mindset of "telco = line providers" and they use what the operators offer without making a distinction, and happy with that.


I'm not sure about that. Look at the common internet services that are being used now - certainly by anyone under 40 (and many over that too);

Web-browsing, E-mail, file-transfer, IM, IP telephony (various flavours), audio streaming, video streaming, syndication etc.

Now for how many of these would it be OK for your ISP (really should be called IAP - Internet Access Provider) to block because they had their own equivalent service? Not many, if any.

Users are more savvy than operators give them credit for and access to the Internet is (almost) a fundamental right. Most of the people in operator/carrier land who are making these policies are pre-internet era themselves.

Mobile operators will face competition from other providers, fixed and wireless. Perhaps we'll see two types of network operator - open vs. walled - and users will make a choice.

WiMax will provide more bandwidth at cheaper cost. So a WiMax operator needs to be able to build a business case based on just being a 'pipe' - and forget about offering any services, even e-mail or web-hosting, use partners for that.






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Reply # 17897 10-Aug-2005 10:43
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timbo:
freitasm: The problem is that users are still on the old mindset of "telco = line providers" and they use what the operators offer without making a distinction, and happy with that.


I'm not sure about that. Look at the common internet services that are being used now - certainly by anyone under 40 (and many over that too);

Web-browsing, E-mail, file-transfer, IM, IP telephony (various flavours), audio streaming, video streaming, syndication etc.
Yes, people use these services - but how many do it on a cellular connection?





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Reply # 17898 10-Aug-2005 10:46
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Not many to date, but widespread 3G networks are still pretty new in NZ and overseas. And some mobile operators are trying to compete against ISP's as being the only connection users need.

How many users now would be able to go totally mobile for voice and data (increasing laptop sales/cheaper data plans) and give up their fixed connection?

3G performance and much cheaper pricing is changing the playing field significantly.

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Reply # 17899 10-Aug-2005 11:10
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I have not had a home line in over 2 years and being using GPRS and now 3G. I have a 0800 number that comes to my mobile but only will give this out if I have too.

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Reply # 17900 10-Aug-2005 11:15
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So how do you feel about your ISP/IAP determining which internet services you can use?

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Reply # 17903 10-Aug-2005 11:20
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Does not bother me at all thats just the way the cookie crumbles. Its there network I don't own it and would not tell anyone what to do!

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Reply # 17904 10-Aug-2005 11:31
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timbo: How many users now would be able to go totally mobile for voice and data (increasing laptop sales/cheaper data plans) and give up their fixed connection?
I have been thinking of disconnecting my landline for a couple years now. The only thing holding the decision is that it is pretty cheap with my cable modem connection - and I am on a 10mbps plan on cable, which is currently hard to beat in price and speed.

Also, we would need at least two high speed cellular connections. I share my cable modem with my family here, so what would happen if I am out for meetings or in another country for a conference?

But, yes, I would like to have no wires around here. It is just not practical, yet. We have to wait for other solutions. As I said Woosh is a good concept, but service coverage and speed are still lacking.





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Reply # 17905 10-Aug-2005 11:40
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johnr: Does not bother me at all thats just the way the cookie crumbles. Its there network I don't own it and would not tell anyone what to do!

John, John, John - that is very sad. Being an apologist for the man is not a nice position to be in.

Lucky for you then that Telecom were forced to let Vodafone interconnect with them to deliver voice calls when they started. Regulation is needed when market players overstep their boundaries - which they can't see because they act in self-interest. I am not blaming them for this but it is why they cannot be allowed to run free - in any industry.

If ISP's really insist on blocking or controlling internet access then I am sure we will see some sort of legal definition of what internet access should be.

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Reply # 17906 10-Aug-2005 11:46
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Interconnect was done back in Bell South days years before vodafone came into the picture! about 1992

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Reply # 17907 10-Aug-2005 11:48
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Yes technically you are correct - thanks for pointing that out. But it doesn't change the arguement.



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