Seeking advice on 4G antenna options for long distance RBI

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jenz888

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#284593 3-May-2021 13:27

Hello,

This is my first post, although I've been frequenting these boards for some years, usually getting all the tech answers I require, without needing to post questions.

Background Info

I'm on a property that is ~15 to ~20 km from the nearest 4G (700 Mhz) towers (Vodafone). Property location is 36°51'59.28"S, 175°32'52.18"E.

There is an existing ANT-205 Yagi antenna, that was previously set up with Vodafone. The modem is a Huawei B315s-607. It was pointing pretty much due north, to an 1800 Mhz tower, ~16km away. I connected the modem to a plan yesterday, and with the existing set up it was giving pretty low speeds (around 2-5 Mbps up, and similar down).

Aiming it almost due east, toward Whitianga area, where there's a number of 700 Mhz towers (Cooks Beach, Hahei, Whitianga x2), I am getting download speeds of around ~8 to ~11 Mbps, and upload around ~10 to ~20 Mbps. So it seems those towers are a better bet. There's quite a lot of trees about 40m from the antenna, that it's having to go through. There's nothing I can do about that.

As an aside, when I put my Skinny sim in the modem, and use just the internal antennas, it surprisingly gets download speeds of around 15 to 22 Mbps, and upload of around 30 Mbps. That's coming from a Spark tower at Preece Point (there's a large hill between me and that tower). Unfortunately Spark don't do RBI Wireless from that tower, or any others that service this location.

When I aim the external antenna over to the Whitiangi "cluster" I am getting (more or less) the following signal readings on the modem:

Rsrq:   -7dB
Rsrp:   -96dBm
Rssi:   -71dBm
PCI:   336
Upload Frequency: 730.5MHz
Band: 28

Questions

I'd like to maximise the throughput I am getting, especially download speeds.

I read with interest the discussion here. Particularly this comment from @coffeebarron >> "You do get better signal with the ANT-205 tilted 45° but at the expense of not allowing it to cross both antenna paths. 2x antenna is is best, and for low signal the ANT-213 is recommended."

... And this comment from SATTV >> "4G uses mimo so 2 antenna is required for max speed. As they are on different planes one may work while the other is degraded, antenna should be at 45 degree and 315 degree"

I also read the dual antenna / MIMO comments posted here.

Based on those comments I am considering buying an additional Yagi ANT-205 antenna, and aiming the two of them to the towers toward the east.

First question ... Do all LTE / 700 Mhz towers in NZ support Mimo?

I see an ANT-213 was also suggested. Is that something that can also be set up in a MIMO arrangement for better throughput?

I also found these antennas that have a grid "dish" on them, https://powertec.co.nz/buy/blackhawk-parabolic-grid-antenna-698-798/. I'd be interested to know if that might have an advantage over either a dual / MIMO set-up (2x ANT-205).

I'd be grateful to read your thoughts on what is likely to be the best arrangement. I realise it can only be hypothetical, without actually testing things out.

Thanks very much.

Jonathan

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#2701215 3-May-2021 14:24

@coffeebaron :)

coffeebaron

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#2701236 3-May-2021 15:07

A few options here. Based on the stats and speeds you are getting, it looks like you may be able to receive some higher frequency bands. Firstly I'd look at replacing the old B315 with the the B818, as this will do carrier aggregation. Then I'd look at an antenna setup with reasonable gain that can do a range of frequencies.

I'd get 2x Blackhawk LPDA Antenna 698-4000MHz 12/14dBi - Buy Online - Powertec NZ plus there is a bracket that allows you to set these up in MIMO (45/45) configuration.

If you have a big budget, then 2x Blackhawk 4G-5G Ultraband Grid Antenna, 600 to 6500MHz - Buy Online - Powertec NZ I think there is also a way to set these up in MIMO (45/45) configuration too.

If you need help getting any of this in, I'm a Powertec Dealer, so can get stuff in for you. Flick me a message and I can advise pricing / options etc.

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jenz888

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#2701328 3-May-2021 18:08

coffeebaron:

A few options here. Based on the stats and speeds you are getting, it looks like you may be able to receive some higher frequency bands. Firstly I'd look at replacing the old B315 with the the B818, as this will do carrier aggregation. Then I'd look at an antenna setup with reasonable gain that can do a range of frequencies.

Thanks coffeebaron. I appreciate your input.

I've spent some time this afternoon up on the roof top, signal hunting. Lovely day for it.

I've figured out the 4G tower (PCI 336) I was connecting to yesterday in Hahei. Astoundingly, that's around 22km from here! I understand from the service provider that the Hahei site is heavily loaded with users (makes sense, as I suspect wireless is going to be the primary, if not only, means for everyone in that area to get online).

I've also found that aiming in a few degrees further north the connection often jumps over to PCI 339 (Whitianga Central), which is operating at 1932.8MHz, Band 1. I get a much poorer signal when connected to that site, as follows:

Rsrq:   -13dB
Rsrp:   -111dBm
Rssi:   -109dBm

At 4pm, Monday, speed was 5.5 Mbps / 2.5 Mbps. Early, at around 2:30pm (before school kids getting home, is my guess), it was around 9.5 Mbps down, and ~15 up. At 6pm it was 7 to 9.5 Mbps down, ~2.5 Mbps up.

I'm setting all this up on for a Charitable Trust, which owns the property, and their budget for this isn't large. Getting 2x BLACKHAWK LPDA ANTENNA 698-4000MHZ 12/14DBI would about chew it all up. Which is okay, but that doesn't leave room for much else.

I've looked into the B818 modems, and there doesn't seem to be much availability in NZ. I see one on TradeMe though.

Would a TP-Link OneMesh Archer MR600 4G+ LTE Cat6 Wi-Fi Router equally do the trick? I see it supports CAT6 carrier aggregation.

UPDATE (more connections):

I twisted the antenna another couple of degrees just now (6:30pm, Monday), and it has connected to PCI 336, on 1770 MHz (Band 3), which is Hahei again, but on a different band / frequency. Connection is poor, with RSRQ of -12dB, and RSRP of -111 dBm, but speed down is around 11.5, and up is 4.2. That's about double what the PCI 339 on Band one was giving a few minutes ago. I'm posting this in case this data is of use.

Linux

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#2701332 3-May-2021 18:26

RBI you have to use the modem provided by ISP it is not bring your own moden

jenz888

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#2701336 3-May-2021 18:32

Linux: RBI you have to use the modem provided by ISP it is not bring your own moden

Hi Linux,

My ISP had no issue with me using the existing equipment that was here at the property.
So I assume you're referring to discussion above about buying a new modem? And if so ... would you please elaborate? For example, are you saying it would not be possible to buy and use a B818 as suggested by coffeebaron? And or not possible to use a T-Link as mentioned in my last post? If so, what's the reason? Is it a configuration issue?

Thanks.

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#2701345 3-May-2021 19:03

The SIM cards for RBI are TAC locked the B818 is provided by the carrier!

coffeebaron

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#2701426 3-May-2021 20:17

Who is your provider?

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jenz888

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#2701982 4-May-2021 22:26

The ISP is Netspeed. The equipment I have was issued by Vodafone.

jenz888

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#2710577 21-May-2021 10:11

For anyone that may benefit from this discussion ...

We ended up getting 1x BLACKHAWK LPDA ANTENNA 698-4000MHZ 12/14DBI, and a Huawei B818-263 modem. The modem change along made a big difference. Adding in the Blackhawk antenna (I've paired it with the ANT-205 for now, which resulted in some additional gains) made a big difference to. The catch now, is I've discovered Vodafone generally limit RBI to 30 Mbps down and 9 Mbps up. So I'm sitting at those exact speeds. Occasionally upload jumps up to around 20 Mbps, but mostly it's fixed at 9 Mbps.

I did a test using my Spark SIM in the B818 modem, and it gets speeds of around 70 to 80 Mbps download, and 20 to 35 Mbps upload. That's via my phone data plan though. On the tower I was connecting to, I was only able to get carrier aggregation to kick on with Spark on one of their reported CA pairs ... B28 + B3. The other pairings would do CA (B3 + B7, B7 + B28, etc.).

With Vodafone I can get the B818 to do CA on all available 2x and 3x combinations. I can see when doing speed tests on the Vodafone connection, it often hits a peak speed of around 60 to 70 Mbps download, but it's rapidly capped down to 30.

My conclusion ... Carrier aggregation makes a big difference, but so does having a more modern modem. The long range antenna was also worth the investment.

Jonathan

jpwise

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#2879108 4-Mar-2022 14:47

Hey @Jonathan - just wondering how your install is going after a year, and if you've noticed much difference with pairing the different antennas? (or if anyone else has comment on expected signal for matched vs different antennas?)

I'm looking at options for a possibly similar install - ~40km south of Whangarei where family live - a bit south of Waikieikie township - https://www.google.com/maps/place/Waikiekie,+Waiotira+0193/

As far as I can tell it looks like Vodafone still does the B818 as their main 4G router now, and comments above about pairing it with the Blackhawk antenna are really useful, although there may still be a few hoops to go through regarding trying to identify cell sites in the area are practical to try and link to (from memory opensignal reported only 2 or 3 last time i was there), and the building is also near the bottom of a valley - so essentially not far off the worst place to try and get a signal. Vodafone is also the only one in the area that does have any signal at all - albeit marginal.

I've got an old B315 that I can possibly use for testing, but will probably need to get the antennas to prove the area can actually get coverage, and then it's down to trying to sort out a plan that isn't going to cost too much per month. RBI vs 4G wireless plan, etc.

Thx.

Jp.

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jenz888

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#2879267 5-Mar-2022 06:44

Hi JP,

What I detailed in my last message still stands, and continues to be the experience now as it was then.

The B818-263 made a huge difference. As noted above, I had to manually fine tune which specific frequency signals it aggregated to get best results.

The Blackhawk antenna also made a big difference. I didn't end up getting a second Blackhawk, nor did I end up pairing the Blackhawk with my old antenna. I was already getting the max speed Vodafone allows, as mentioned above. If Vodafone didn't limit the speed, I would like have got a 2nd antenna for a MIMO (45/45) configuration. But there was not point in my situation.

Good luck.

Jonathan

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#2879276 5-Mar-2022 07:50

jpwise:

As far as I can tell it looks like Vodafone still does the B818 as their main 4G router now, and comments above about pairing it with the Blackhawk antenna are really useful, although there may still be a few hoops to go through regarding trying to identify cell sites in the area are practical to try and link to (from memory opensignal reported only 2 or 3 last time i was there), and the building is also near the bottom of a valley - so essentially not far off the worst place to try and get a signal.

I'd try CellMapper instead -- there's a lot of really good data there about cell sites across all 3 networks in many parts of NZ.

jpwise

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#2879301 5-Mar-2022 08:55

Hey guys, cheers for the replies.
Good to hear the 1x blackhawk did the job, so I'll see if I can get one on order as I'll be up there again in April.

I haven't done proper research on it yet, but if coverage is still patchy, is it feasible to use 2 antennas pointed at different sites or best to just stick to one and get a better antenna again if it comes up that?

Re Cellmapper, I stumbled on that last night as well, looks like it's map confirms the 2 or 3 cell sites I thought were in the area. Will definitely have to do some mapping in the area to see which one I can connect to.

Thx
Jp

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#2879303 5-Mar-2022 09:07

Not sure how up to date that site is though - I know of a few sites that aren't on there when I looked for them.

coffeebaron

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#2879674 6-Mar-2022 10:59

@jpwise Probably the Horokaka site is best. If you can post PSI codes I can probably look that up for you too.

Here is the bracket to do MIMO configuration on 2x Blackhawk antennas

https://powertec.co.nz/buy/blackhawk-mimo-stainless-mounting-bracket-for-dual-lpdas/

Also both antenna's need to be pointed at same tower.

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