Anti-5G meeting on the North Shore, sigh

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#2486757 19-May-2020 23:42

zenourn:
In my area I focus particularly on mathematics/statistics (was my initial background) and I have to suggest substantial revisions to most papers that I review.

I've run into that as well, proper statistical analysis of results in CompSci papers in the area I review were so rare in the past that some years ago I was actually shocked to see a paper submitted that did rigorous analysis of the data. OTOH management science papers are the exact opposite, they'll take three diverging data points and apply 20 pages of statistical mangling to identify a trend. So the CompSci stuff was lots of data, little to no analysis (although it's gotten better in recent years), the MgtSci stuff was little to no data and infinite analysis for which changing any parameter anywhere would completely change the outcome. And don't even get me started on the quality of the data and analysis of a lot of Social Sciences papers.

If only it were possible to combine the CompSci empiricism with the MgtSci analysis...

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#2486770 20-May-2020 00:34

Pockett's NZMA Journal paper is available in full online in html:

https://www.nzma.org.nz/journal-articles/public-health-and-the-radio-frequency-radiation-emitted-by-cellphone-technology-smart-meters-and-wifi

It mentions a range of studies I don't recall from my previous reading which was a few years ago now. The main point of the paper seems to be saying ample evidence exists and has accumulated for non-thermal effects and this evidence has been overlooked.

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#2486859 20-May-2020 09:25

gzt: Pockett's NZMA Journal paper is available in full online in html:

https://www.nzma.org.nz/journal-articles/public-health-and-the-radio-frequency-radiation-emitted-by-cellphone-technology-smart-meters-and-wifi

It mentions a range of studies I don't recall from my previous reading which was a few years ago now. The main point of the paper seems to be saying ample evidence exists and has accumulated for non-thermal effects and this evidence has been overlooked.

Many items published in the NZMA have to be taken with a grain of salt (and this is a viewpoint with no peer review). Yes, there are well known molecular non-thermal effects and we use these every day in applications such as MRI. However, there is no reliable evidence that any of these are harmful. She also cherry picks a few epidemiological studies that have "shown" a link, but for each of those studies you can find flaws in the methodology or another 10 studies that didn't find any link.

I love the recommendations from this paper:

Find out whether you have an electricity smart meter. If no meter readers come round any more, you probably do. To find out for sure, DO NOT peer closely at the meter (see Figure 1). Ask the power company. If you do have a smart meter, persevere until you find a power company willing to replace it with a dumb meter (ie, a smart meter from which the radio transmitter has been removed). In the meantime, avoid sleeping or sitting for long periods just through the wall from a smart meter.
If you must use a cellphone, avoid lengthy conversations. Do not hold the device against your ear; use speaker mode or text. If you need a long chat, use a landline—preferably not one accessed through a cordless phone. All cordless phones emit RF, although cordless landlines emit less than cellphones.
Do not carry in your clothing any cellphone that is not either in airplane mode or switched off. Cellphones not in one of those conditions continually emit RF, even when not in use. Figure 1 illustrates how much more intense these emissions are very close to the phone.
Do not use a WiFi-enabled laptop on your lap, for the same reason.
Preferably obtain your home internet access through a cable, instead of via WiFi. Failing that, turn off household WiFi at night.
Stop even taking an active phone into the bedroom at night, let alone sleeping with it under your pillow.
Restrict cellphone use to emergencies.
Gradually phase out device use altogether.

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#2486860 20-May-2020 09:29

zenourn:

I love the recommendations from this paper:

Find out whether you have an electricity smart meter. If no meter readers come round any more, you probably do. To find out for sure, DO NOT peer closely at the meter (see Figure 1). Ask the power company. If you do have a smart meter, persevere until you find a power company willing to replace it with a dumb meter (ie, a smart meter from which the radio transmitter has been removed). In the meantime, avoid sleeping or sitting for long periods just through the wall from a smart meter.
If you must use a cellphone, avoid lengthy conversations. Do not hold the device against your ear; use speaker mode or text. If you need a long chat, use a landline—preferably not one accessed through a cordless phone. All cordless phones emit RF, although cordless landlines emit less than cellphones.
Do not carry in your clothing any cellphone that is not either in airplane mode or switched off. Cellphones not in one of those conditions continually emit RF, even when not in use. Figure 1 illustrates how much more intense these emissions are very close to the phone.
Do not use a WiFi-enabled laptop on your lap, for the same reason.
Preferably obtain your home internet access through a cable, instead of via WiFi. Failing that, turn off household WiFi at night.
Stop even taking an active phone into the bedroom at night, let alone sleeping with it under your pillow.
Restrict cellphone use to emergencies.
Gradually phase out device use altogether.

Like "The Victorian Belief That a Train Ride Could Cause Instant Insanity"

Beccara

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#2486872 20-May-2020 09:58

Why is someone from "School of Psychology" dabbling in a health physics issue?

Most problems are the result of previous solutions...

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#2486876 20-May-2020 10:02

I was amused to find that one of Pockett's supporters known as "Dr Wellness" also believes in homeopathy. Proof that you don't need any evidence to attract a following.

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#2486904 20-May-2020 11:01

if you look at the international "Doctors" that have signed up to say its unsafe, the majority of them have no background in RF Radiation, their are dentists, chiropractors etc. but people just see doctor and go OK. must be credible.

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#2487159 20-May-2020 14:27

Bung: I was amused to find that one of Pockett's supporters known as "Dr Wellness" also believes in homeopathy. Proof that you don't need any evidence to attract a following.

There was some historical precedent for this, back when it was a fight between the allopaths and homeopaths the allopaths, who used techniques like bloodletting, purging, and similar intrusive interventions, were killing a lot more people than the homeopaths, who gave people water. So homeopathy appeared to be more effective than allopathy because it was less lethal. Then evidence-based medicine, which did actually help, came along and left both of the previous approaches for the quacks. But at one point homeopathy appeared better.

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#2487167 20-May-2020 14:38

freitasm:

Like "The Victorian Belief That a Train Ride Could Cause Instant Insanity"

Maybe we can take some advice from that article.

the ~~attacker~~ Anti-5G was battled and jabbed back with the pointy end of an umbrella

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#2487235 20-May-2020 15:36

Jase2985:

if you look at the international "Doctors" that have signed up to say its unsafe, the majority of them have no background in RF Radiation, their are dentists, chiropractors etc. but people just see doctor and go OK. must be credible.

You see a lot of this - doctor, researcher, scientist, industry expert. Often pretty specious and often not related or experienced with the subject at hand. Particularly common in conspiracy theories in my experience, precisely because it adds undeserved credibility.

Being a doctor does not make one an expert on everything, particularly not if it's an honourary doctor. Even begs the question is the so-called "doctor" actually a dcotor at all, or is it just flat out BS?

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#2487242 20-May-2020 15:49

antonknee:

Jase2985:

if you look at the international "Doctors" that have signed up to say its unsafe, the majority of them have no background in RF Radiation, their are dentists, chiropractors etc. but people just see doctor and go OK. must be credible.

You see a lot of this - doctor, researcher, scientist, industry expert. Often pretty specious and often not related or experienced with the subject at hand. Particularly common in conspiracy theories in my experience, precisely because it adds undeserved credibility.

Being a doctor does not make one an expert on everything, particularly not if it's an honourary doctor. Even begs the question is the so-called "doctor" actually a dcotor at all, or is it just flat out BS?

Once, just for the fun of it, I did a detailed trace on a colloidal silver snake-oil campaign. On the surface, the ads looked pretty convincing, though it was the extravagant claims being made for colloidal silver that triggered my BS alarm in the first place. As I delved further and further into the numerous (don't recall exactly how many, I think about a dozen) international 'scientific' references and credible-seeming testimonials, following each one to the end, they ultimately all began to loop back to each other. In the end, there were just three organisations, two of which were run by the same people in America, citing each other to generate what seemed like a mass of evidence. One or two of the people involved may (or may not) have been doctors of something, but it had little to do with what they were certifying.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

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#2487257 20-May-2020 16:21

Rikkitic:

Once, just for the fun of it, I did a detailed trace on a colloidal silver snake-oil campaign. On the surface, the ads looked pretty convincing, though it was the extravagant claims being made for colloidal silver that triggered my BS alarm in the first place. As I delved further and further into the numerous (don't recall exactly how many, I think about a dozen) international 'scientific' references and credible-seeming testimonials, following each one to the end, they ultimately all began to loop back to each other. In the end, there were just three organisations, two of which were run by the same people in America, citing each other to generate what seemed like a mass of evidence. One or two of the people involved may (or may not) have been doctors of something, but it had little to do with what they were certifying.

Did you ever do anything with your research?

The same sort of snake oil stuff is alive and well here in New Zealand. I've seen people using a magic solution which you rub a drop of into your wrists once or twice a day. It has some magical properties apparently.

I have some relatives who drive hundreds of kilometres to "consult" with a snake oil salesman. They weren't impressed when I told them once it was all a crock of excrement. I'd be very surprised if they haven't been "prescribed" colloidal silver or similar.

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#2487347 20-May-2020 18:53

I never did anything with my research. I thought about it but decided it was too much trouble. One of the three companies mentioned above was in NZ. They were the ones that ran the ad here, which is why it caught my attention. I think these people probably try to stay just within the letter of the law, so it might be difficult to prosecute them. It is like those charities that collect a dollar, spend 99 cents on overheads, and give 1 cent to the good cause so they can't be prosecuted.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

Rikkitic

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#2487349 20-May-2020 19:00

Addition to preceding: A lot of companies trying to push a product will make a big deal out of it coming from or having references in America or Europe, as in, if it comes from there, it must somehow be superior to our own provincial rubbish. In this case, the NZ business was citing the American ones for credibility, and the American ones cited the NZ one (exotic appeal to Americans). It was just a daisy-chain.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

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#2487359 20-May-2020 19:17

@Rikkitic reckon you're 100% correct - con artists and swindlers like that are careful to ensure they don't technically breach the law, but the net effect is the same.

Virtuous cycle of BS you've just described.

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