Another reason to ban 5G?

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#2841028 31-Dec-2021 21:54

This is just one 5G frequency which is of concern just below the 4ghz we dint use that specific frequency in NZ and there are plenty of other frequencies the US could use apart from this one

Any views expressed on these forums are my own and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.

ajw

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#2841029 31-Dec-2021 21:56

@Technofreak

I do hope the FAA come up with some evidence that C Band is going to cause interference rather than a hunch. With all the billions spent by the telecoes this gets switched on 5 January.

Technofreak

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#2841032 31-Dec-2021 22:06

ajw:

@Technofreak

I do hope the FAA come up with some evidence that C Band is going to cause interference rather than a hunch. With all the billions spent by the telecoes this gets switched on 5 January.

I think it's probably a bit of a pi55ing contest between the various parties involved. The nub of the matter as I see it is that it isn't up to the FAA to prove anything it's up to the Telcos to prove there isn't a problem.

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ajw

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#2841048 31-Dec-2021 22:12

@Technofreak

If it ends up in court the FAA will have to explain why there is no interference with the same equipment used in over 40 countries and why was this radio spectrum put up for auction. I see the telcoes being compensated for billions if this ends up in court.

Technofreak

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#2841051 31-Dec-2021 22:21

ajw:

@Technofreak

If it ends up in court the FAA will have to explain why there is no interference with the same equipment used in over 40 countries and why was this radio spectrum put up for auction. I see the telcoes being compensated for billions if this ends up in court.

The Telcos may be compensated but not by the FAA. The FAA have nothing to do with the frequency allocation.

It's not the FAA's job to explain why there's no interference overseas nor why that spectrum was put up for auction.

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ajw

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#2841053 31-Dec-2021 22:29

Technofreak:

ajw:

@Technofreak

If it ends up in court the FAA will have to explain why there is no interference with the same equipment used in over 40 countries and why was this radio spectrum put up for auction. I see the telcoes being compensated for billions if this ends up in court.

The Telcos may be compensated but not by the FAA. The FAA have nothing to do with the frequency allocation.

The FAA gave approval to the FCC to auction this spectrum. This is like selling a car and once the money has changed hands the new owner is told he doesn't own the car. From everything I have read the FAA has not even come up with any technical evidence to prove that there is a problem. What a gigantic circus. The FAA better hurry up and do something as it gets switched on in five days.

elpenguino

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#2841088 1-Jan-2022 00:41

Linux: 200Mhz guard band is massive! Seems a bit OTT

It's not enough of an explanation (technically) to say the 2 services are 200 MHz apart and therefore everything is OK.

Like a lot of things, the real answer is 'it depends'.

When you bear in mind that even well designed radio equipment is not perfect, you now have the idea that a transmitter will not only occupy the nominal channel but also take up some of the adjacent channels too.

The amount of side channels that will be occupied is related to the transmitted power so we now find ourselves asking questions like does the US license the same transmit power as the 40 trouble-free countries ?

I suspect a radar device might have trouble tuning out of unwanted transmissions compared to a communications device

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

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empacher48

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#2841104 1-Jan-2022 06:49

I’ve just read an Airbus Safety First article about Radar Altimeter (RA) interference in reference to the 5G spectrum. I can’t link the article as it is company controlled and my job is worth a lot to me.

Airbus themselves have recorded 25 instances of double RA failure in the USA where the failure occurred due to “incompatible signals received by the RA system, or outside interference from a high power transmitter”.

It may not seem a big deal having a double RA failure, but flying the Airbus the following items are lost when we loose both RA’s:

RA 1 and 2
Altitude Call Outs
CAT 2 and CAT 3 ILS capability
Auto land
Reactive Windshear Detection
Traffic Collision and Avoidance System
Runway Over run warning and protection
Normal Flight Control Law
Alternate Flight Control Law with Protections
ILS Approach Mode cannot be used by the autopilot

Only when landing gear down:
Alternate Flight Control Law without Protections - therefore flight is continued in Direct Law and Flap 3 only.

It isn’t as simple as if the RA doesn’t work you need higher landing minima, for all Airbus aircraft it is a significant reduction in aircraft performance and safety. For flight crew, the workload required to fly an approach in their configuration is significant and you are doing it without your normal safety back up systems.

ajw

1932 posts

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#2841161 1-Jan-2022 07:44

@empacher48

The same frequencies are used in over 40 countries with only a 100MHZ guardband (200MHZ) in the US and no reported issues. It seems the FAA are a bit late to the party as Verizon and AT&t are switching Cband on the 5January.

https://fortune.com/2021/12/22/aviation-att-verizon-faa-5g-service-dispute/

empacher48

368 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2841165 1-Jan-2022 07:53

ajw:
@empatcher48

The same frequencies are used in over 40 countries with only a 100MHZ guardband (200MHZ) in the US and no reported issues. It seems the FAA are a bit late to the party as Verizon and AT&t are switching Cband on the 5January.

I don’t know what they are around the world, but all I’ve read is what the aircraft manufacturers have discovered through reports from airlines about this issue, some airlines are very good at providing this information back to the manufacturer, others not.

From what I understand it has been Airbus and Boeing who have bought these issues to the FAA’s attention, it’s then up to the FAA/JAA/CAA etc to make decisions in regards to the risk they deem acceptable. Since the FAA was caught up in the Boeing MCAS issues as being too hands off and lots of people died, they may not be as relaxed about potential airliner accidents as other authorities worldwide.

ajw

1932 posts

Uber Geek

#2841167 1-Jan-2022 08:01

empacher48:
ajw:

@empatcher48

The same frequencies are used in over 40 countries with only a 100MHZ guardband (200MHZ) in the US and no reported issues. It seems the FAA are a bit late to the party as Verizon and AT&t are switching Cband on the 5January.

I don’t know what they are around the world, but all I’ve read is what the aircraft manufacturers have discovered through reports from airlines about this issue, some airlines are very good at providing this information back to the manufacturer, others not.

From what I understand it has been Airbus and Boeing who have bought these issues to the FAA’s attention, it’s then up to the FAA/JAA/CAA etc to make decisions in regards to the risk they deem acceptable. Since the FAA was caught up in the Boeing MCAS issues as being too hands off and lots of people died, they may not be as relaxed about potential airliner accidents as other authorities worldwide.

https://www.thewellnews.com/telecommunications/ex-fcc-chairs-voice-concerns-over-faa-stance-on-5g/

empacher48

368 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2841171 1-Jan-2022 08:16

ajw:
https://www.thewellnews.com/telecommunications/ex-fcc-chairs-voice-concerns-over-faa-stance-on-5g/

If we’re going to quote news stories at each other, try this one:
Bitter Rivals Airbus and Boeing Team Up to Call For Delay of 5G Rollout in US

In the article it states: “ A recommendation is that the power of 5G transmissions near airports should be limited. Other countries have acted on advice including Canada, which restricts locating new 5G towers near the runways of large airports.”

Other countries are concerned and making recommendations. It’s not just the FAA that doesn’t want people who live near airports to have an airliner appear through their lounge roof.

ajw

1932 posts

Uber Geek

#2841173 1-Jan-2022 08:23

@empacher48

Airbus and Boeing already operate aircraft in over 40 countries with no problems. It seems Verizon, AT&T and Tmobile will be switching on C band in five days time.

“We fully expect to deploy our 5G services over this spectrum early in the first quarter of 2022,” Verizon spokesman Richard Young told The Washington Post in November.

Wireless industry group CTIA has accused the aviation industry of fearmongering and distorting facts, reported Reuters.

empacher48

368 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2841182 1-Jan-2022 08:35

ajw:
@empacher48

Airbus and Boeing already operate aircraft in over 40 countries with no problems. It seems Verizon, AT&T and Tmobile will be switching on C band in five days time.

No problems, or no reported problems?

Slight, but large difference. If your 40 countries include places like Canada, which already have mitigation strategies in place, then you wouldn’t expect reports of issues. If any of the 40 countries you’ve listed happen to have a poor reporting culture, then you’ll have issues, but you don’t know about them because they won’t be reported.

Fortunately aviation safety has moved on from reacting to reports of safety issues, to predicting where those issues will be and putting in suitable safety measures before you get reports of problems. It’s how it works now, either prove there is no problem or assume there is a problem until you can prove there isn’t one.

ajw

1932 posts

Uber Geek

#2841186 1-Jan-2022 08:40

@empacher48

We can debate this subject all day but quoting from your article.

Verizon and AT&T were due to start using C-Band spectrum 5G wireless on December 5, but delayed the launch until the new year.

“We fully expect to deploy our 5G services over this spectrum early in the first quarter of 2022,” Verizon spokesman Richard Young told The Washington Post in November.

Wireless industry group CTIA has accused the aviation industry of fearmongering and distorting facts, reported Reuters.

The group’s president and CEO Meredith Attwell Baker says 5G is safe: “There appears to be no valid scientific or engineering basis to justify a delay, and there is overwhelming evidence to support rapid deployment. 5G operates safely in the C-Band without causing harmful interference to air traffic.

”Within the nearly 40 countries operating 5G in the C-Band today, there is not a single report of 5G causing harmful interference with air traffic of any kind.”

https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/1103192305940/211103%20CTIA%20Ex%20Parte%20on%20C-Band%20International%20Deployments.pdf

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