2talk 028 to IRD 0800 number

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iamthefirst

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#153758 7-Oct-2014 00:38

Hi all
It's my first ever post here.
I have a question regarding 2talk outbound calls, specifically to 0800/0508 toll free numbers.

As most of you are aware, many businesses/government departments do not accept calls from mobile phones.

IRD is the prominent one that does this.

So I thought this was obvious that calls made from my 028 2550 xxxx couldn't be made. (Technically, they DO terminate calls from mobile phones they just play the message directing people to call a 04 Wellington landline number).

So I tried one day and yes I wasn't able to connect to an IRD person at the other end.

BUT, I was curious.

Not sure if many of you tried this, but if you unconditionally divert all your calls to somewhere else, by dialling *72nnnn where nnnn can be any phone number, then when someone calls my 028 number the calls get diverted to nnnn.

I have an iTalk number from Slingshot as well, so I put my 09 281 xxxx in the place of nnnn.

When I rang my 028 number from my 021 8xx xxx (2degrees), the call got diverted to my iTalk number then the caller display shows 021 8xx xxx instead of 028 2550 xxxx.

Oh that's strange, because at my work, unconditional call forwarding basically means our company PBX sends the company's own nubmer (usually hiddlen to most caller ID devices, but can be identified at higher level, and the number our company sends out is usually one of the main trunk numbers, not my personal DDI).

The next step is to put IRD's 0800 number in the place of nnnn, so I dialled *720800227773.

When I rang 028 2550 xxxx from my 021 8xx xxx, the call was answered by the usual message saying that I should ring them back on a 04 landline. That's fine, probably what I expected anyway.

But when I rang my 028 2550 xxx from my 09 580 xxxx landline, the call actually went through as if I was calling from a landline.

Technically, at least from what I understand, both calls are originating from the same 028 2550 xxxx.

So how is this possible?

Does that mean IRD accepts calls from 028 numbers in general if the call is forwarding a landline originated call? (in my case 09 580 xxxx)

Regardless of what caller ID get sent to IRD, both calls are originating from the same 028 number in IRD's point of view, so how does the billing work? Do they get charged landline rates for calls forwarded from landlines or do they get charged mobile rates for calls forwarded from landlines?

So in simple graph

case 1: 09 580 xxxx -> 028 2550 xxxx -> 0800 227773 IRD accepts call

case 2: 021 8xx xxx -> 028 2550 xxxx -> 0800 227772 IRD declines call

So in case 1, how does billing work? Does 2talk get paid mobile rates or landline rates for originating calls?

I am happy to add more description and I am sure this is an interesting topic for some of you as well.

sbiddle

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#1148824 7-Oct-2014 07:09

What you've described is how call forward works on 99% of networks (and how it should work)

Network based call forward should always display the A party ANI/CID - if your PBX can't do this it's because you're got a badly configured PBX, analogue lines (which can't support this), or a PBX/VoIP provider that doesn't support SIP302 redirection.

iamthefirst

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#1148935 7-Oct-2014 09:51

Alright let's just say our work configuration is wrong. I have no problem with that. Thanks for clarifying that part.

For the other topic which I was really curious about, and happen to be the correct set up - 2talk call forwarding.

How does the billing actually work?

Basically 2talk forwards original caller id, but the actual call terminating on IRD's 0800 end is coming from 2talk with 028 non geographical number assigned.

Whether 2talk is forwarding landline originating call or mobile originating call wouldn't make any difference to IRD's 0800 billing right?

They would still be terminating calls originating from 2talk 028 so even though IRD accepts CID with a landline number (in my case 09 580 xxxx) they would be charged mobile rates?

In theory this can bypass any 0800 number that blocks mobile calls and still the called party (receiving end) will have to pay for mobile calls?

This is the part that really confuses me.

sbiddle

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#1148947 7-Oct-2014 10:11

0800 routing is based on the ANI of the call, so yes, the hack your using can get around this to make a call. As for billing, you'd need to take that up with 2talk as there are lots of complexities surrounding 028 numbers.

chevrolux

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#1149284 7-Oct-2014 16:53

You can't compare your office PBX call forwarding to the 2Talk call forwarding, they are totally different.

Your office PBX probably has ISDN lines and will just simply be doing a trunk-to-trunk dial to divert calls out to mobile. You can't present A-party CID to the C-Party on the PSTN network.

In the VoIP world there is SIP302 redirect which basically says to the caller, hey! I'm over here and not there. So places the call to correct place and therefore presents the A-party's CID.

Who knows how billing works.... That's a mystery for the IRD to solve haha.

iamthefirst

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#1149745 8-Oct-2014 10:40

yeah thanks guys.
At least now I know what SIP redirect is even though I don't know how it works behind the scene.

I suppose 2talk know how billing works since they are the one that has to be paid for connecting the call? And IRD's phone provider should know since they don't want to get ripped off for terminating a mobile call thinking that it was a landline call?

I don't know.

richms

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#1149749 8-Oct-2014 10:52

You are still paying for the inward call to the 028 number, so little is achieved by doing this.

Richard rich.ms

iamthefirst

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#1149788 8-Oct-2014 11:29

No there is no financial benefit of doing this but technically its doable just to mess with IRD? All you need is MZBEstmate or similar and you can have 1000 min to any number in NZ.

By the way 2talk allows alternative CID which means I can call IRD 0800 if I register a landline number (such as work, parents, or friends as long as you have access to that number) on 2talk. ANd I am guessing people are going to give me the same answer if I ask the same question about billing in this situation :)

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sbiddle

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#1149844 8-Oct-2014 12:00

iamthefirst: No there is no financial benefit of doing this but technically its doable just to mess with IRD? All you need is MZBEstmate or similar and you can have 1000 min to any number in NZ.

By the way 2talk allows alternative CID which means I can call IRD 0800 if I register a landline number (such as work, parents, or friends as long as you have access to that number) on 2talk. ANd I am guessing people are going to give me the same answer if I ask the same question about billing in this situation :)

I'm confused how you think it's going to mess with the IRD. Your call is going to take the same route and interconnects, all that's changing is the ANI/CID that's presented. On most networks the inbound 0800 geo routing and charging will be based on the ANI/CID that's presented. So you'll be paying money to call an 028 number, while IRD are simply paying normal local or national termination rates for the call.

iamthefirst

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#1149871 8-Oct-2014 12:23

I think you've finally answered my initial question about billing of terminating 028 calls on 0800 numbers.

I wasn't sure because you said I should take it up with 2talk about billing so I assumed you didn't know either.

So if billing is based on ANI/CID then yeah it's quite simple. I didn't care about actual rates they charge, but was interested in how different, but same, types of calls are charged

But I am still entirely not convinced how any telcos are getting away with this type of practices, I mean origination is exactly the same (I only have 028 2500 xxxx through 2talk) regardless of what ANI/CID the call sends but charge different rates for practically the same calls (with only difference in ANI/CID) if the terminating 0800 party accepts both types of calls.

Cheers.

sbiddle

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#1150011 8-Oct-2014 14:44

I won't comment on the way 2talk operate and how they interconnect traffic on here, but lets say many in the industry do take issue with many of the things they do.