No dial tone on 2talk/SPA2102 Line 2

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DonGould

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#76922 8-Feb-2011 20:56

Ok, I've configured an SPA2102 per 2talk config on their web site but don't seem to have dial tone on line 2.

I'm just not sure what I'm over looking...

I've tried disable/enable the line - checked that the web site saw the correct line state.

I tried calling the line but no joy.

I'm also wondering if there's a limit on the number of lines I can have on an account and this might be upsetting it? I now have 6 lines on the same account.

Thoughts anyone?

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#437098 9-Feb-2011 05:58

A. do a sip trace / syslog and look at whats happening,
B. Ask 2Talk

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DonGould

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#437177 9-Feb-2011 10:54

Thanks Maverick.

A.

Don't know how to do a sip trace with an ATA connected directly to 2talks proxy as I don't have a server in the middle.

Don't know how I view the syslog on the ATA, didn't even know it had one.

B.

I did.

C.

I have now fixed the ATA and got both lines running. The problem transpired that the second line was set to SAS Enable: yes. When it should be no.

How that happened I don't know.

I tried using Steves auto config script thing but that didn't seem to work.

I manually set up all the settings and it's more than possible that I just set it by mistake.

This is getting easier though as I get my head around most of the settings.

I'm keen to push ~100 of them out there this year, that's what I'm working on. But it's clear to me that I'm going to need some way to provision them without having to spend 2 hours on each box just to make put the line number and password in.

So I'm also going to look for some other hardware solutions as the Cisco guys clearly don't seen to be very interested in this product.

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sbiddle

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#437181 9-Feb-2011 11:02

Cisco/Linksys ATA's are the best product out there for mass deployment with fantastic provisoning tools. Nobody else comes close, especially with the ease of creating encrypted files.

I've found the support to be good from a product point of view - of course they don't provide support on setting products up with a VoIP provider, that's the job of the VoIP provider.

I don't want to this to sound like a negative comment but if you're planning on deploying that many I suggest you either contact somebody who has experience with these products or spend a lot of time understanding how they work. Get things wrong and you'll be deep in it!

maverick

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#437189 9-Feb-2011 11:15

the voice modules and setting are many and varied and there is a large amount of settings that can be changed for optimial working, ie if using custom ringtones with softswitches , which unique ringtones is used bellcore etc, There is a large number of different tools for provisioning with these devices and cisco has done a fantastic job to allow ITSP's to control setting for full SIP interop based around the SIP servers they interconnect too.

Steves config is pretty good but is only generic, there are a large number of options for interop depending on the requirements of the call, ie fall back options for fax, which methods for dtmf, is DND is done locally or on the soft switch or if you use both you can mismatches, ie softswitch has DND but phone dosn't etc, use of SIP XML for updates to control both ends, do you use subscribe for VM indication if it's supportred, if you leave this on by default you can send thousands of wasted and unneeded SIP messages to the SIP server, remember these devices are designed to work locally or in conjuction with a SIP softswitch, turning them on and just putting the user name and credentails not the best.

I would suggest that you if looking to deploy a number of these that you do some SIP interop and see what your sending out on the wire, spamming SIP messages on a network is not good

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DonGould

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#437194 9-Feb-2011 11:26

sbiddle: I don't want to this to sound like a negative comment but if you're planning on deploying that many I suggest you either contact somebody who has experience with these products or spend a lot of time understanding how they work. Get things wrong and you'll be deep in it!

No, that was not taken as a negative comment at all thanks Steve.

I agree with what you're saying which is why I am spending the time to get to understand the product as well as I can and I'm sharing my journey and frustrations in the public forum so others who are interested can benefit.

My impression is that you're now an old hand. Providers aren't going to learn much from you because you just do stuff now without even realizing you're doing it.

I choose to always share my experiences in the public space if I can, so that everyone can use my experiences to help forward their cause.

Some companies spend big money on focus groups and those costs are passed back on to consumers.

I hope the Cisco guy is reading these posts or talks to someone who is and gets the picture that his kit isn't as easy as it needs to be to configure and automate the configuration of.

While you may now find it easy, in my view it is far from being a consumer level product so far and we do need to get it to the point of being such if it is to benefit consumers in a meaningful way.

With respect to providers I also agree with you.

Frankly I hope my comments would help you form a business case to sell more of your skills to those providers to improve their systems. That's where I'm going to take my skills if someone hasn't already stepped into that space by the time I get there.

2Talk, for example only seem to provide very basic help and don't seem to have the resource to provide more assistance.

I note with interested that VFX have got resellers selling preconfigured gear, which is good and smart, but they've failed to get the resellers to clearly explain to customers what they'er doing - I was very confused for a while there.

However the whole space is a bit bonkers and not very mature yet which I suspect is why it's not getting as much traction as it could.

I just happened to talk to a customer the other day who had been told she needed a server to do something she wanted to do when she clearly didn't in my mind. She was so confused that she just decided to stick with using the PSTN providers what she's been using.

D

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DonGould

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#437204 9-Feb-2011 11:52

maverick: see what your sending out on the wire, spamming SIP messages on a network is not good

Man you're totally racing ahead of me... I just want a basic config for an ATA that is low cost, that will let me plug a fax and cordless phone in to it and will just work.

My current care factor for DND is 0. I don't even care about call waiting currently.

Does that give you a clearer picture of where I'm at? :)

I spent half a decade selling PABX gear. When I started I was all excited about all the features until I found that most people don't care and just don't use any of the features.

Today I'm looking for a simple fixed line replacement. Hence why I'm looking at ATAs and not SIP phones.

As for noise on the network... hummmmm really?!

Don't these units talk to each other and automatically share feature information? Do they just sit there shouting at each other?

That's good news for my network business but not so hot for the poor guy having to provision the server end of this crap....

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maverick

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#437206 9-Feb-2011 12:02

DonGould:
sbiddle: I don't want to this to sound like a negative comment but if you're planning on deploying that many I suggest you either contact somebody who has experience with these products or spend a lot of time understanding how they work. Get things wrong and you'll be deep in it!

No, that was not taken as a negative comment at all thanks Steve.

I agree with what you're saying which is why I am spending the time to get to understand the product as well as I can and I'm sharing my journey and frustrations in the public forum so others who are interested can benefit.

My impression is that you're now an old hand. Providers aren't going to learn much from you because you just do stuff now without even realizing you're doing it.

I choose to always share my experiences in the public space if I can, so that everyone can use my experiences to help forward their cause.

Some companies spend big money on focus groups and those costs are passed back on to consumers.

I hope the Cisco guy is reading these posts or talks to someone who is and gets the picture that his kit isn't as easy as it needs to be to configure and automate the configuration of.

While you may now find it easy, in my view it is far from being a consumer level product so far and we do need to get it to the point of being such if it is to benefit consumers in a meaningful way.

With respect to providers I also agree with you.

Frankly I hope my comments would help you form a business case to sell more of your skills to those providers to improve their systems. That's where I'm going to take my skills if someone hasn't already stepped into that space by the time I get there.

2Talk, for example only seem to provide very basic help and don't seem to have the resource to provide more assistance.

I note with interested that VFX have got resellers selling preconfigured gear, which is good and smart, but they've failed to get the resellers to clearly explain to customers what they'er doing - I was very confused for a while there.

However the whole space is a bit bonkers and not very mature yet which I suspect is why it's not getting as much traction as it could.

I just happened to talk to a customer the other day who had been told she needed a server to do something she wanted to do when she clearly didn't in my mind. She was so confused that she just decided to stick with using the PSTN providers what she's been using.

D

Cisco are very aware I believe in this space, if you look around at a lot of VOIP devices out there the settings are very basic with not a lot of control for SIP interop to overlay IP Centrix services, fall back options, TCP / TLS SRTP etc, Cisco have enabled a basic user to just put in a few details and yes you can then make calls, they also have a fantastic mass deployment tools that ryes do require skill set that generally most home users won't use comprehend or even understand, making a call is a success for them.

For Telco’s this is not the case SIP is the emerging technology of choice for Voice comms, deploying it correctly so that it can be a viable option to PSTN should be our prime focus and to that we need to make sure that it is deployed correctly, there are far too many cowboys out there I believe who seem to think running a Asterisk Box and placing a phone call is perfectly fine and that’s all they need to do and all of a sudden they are VOIP experts, I relate this back to the large increase in Asterisk users that are getting hacked on a daily basis due to poorly configured systems, Cisco empower the ITSP to fully integrate SIP and interop it to a granular level, they empower mass deployments with their systems but this is not a 5 minute read the manual and away we go type of thing and this does take time and knowledge of SIP and what the parameters are doing and how they relate to the PSTN which is where they ultimately go, this is one of the main reasons we elected our deployment model for the mainstream product offerings, we control the configs so as to control the user experience as we know exactly how it will behave with our SBC’s, Softswitches and PSTN handoffs, hopefully in most cases it should be plug and play and the same method applies across all their product ranges, no one else comes close to a Varity of device offerings using a mass common deployment method.

I applaud your effort in wanting to bring VOIP to the masses from a user side but just because a system is not as easy it you would like it does not make it bad and the SIP stack is one of the best around, you are looking at only the point to point part at this stage the industry needs to look at this form an end to end standards solution .

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maverick

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#437212 9-Feb-2011 12:12

DonGould:
maverick: see what your sending out on the wire, spamming SIP messages on a network is not good

Man you're totally racing ahead of me... I just want a basic config for an ATA that is low cost, that will let me plug a fax and cordless phone in to it and will just work.

My current care factor for DND is 0. I don't even care about call waiting currently.

Does that give you a clearer picture of where I'm at? :)

I spent half a decade selling PABX gear. When I started I was all excited about all the features until I found that most people don't care and just don't use any of the features.

Today I'm looking for a simple fixed line replacement. Hence why I'm looking at ATAs and not SIP phones.

As for noise on the network... hummmmm really?!

Don't these units talk to each other and automatically share feature information? Do they just sit there shouting at each other?

That's good news for my network business but not so hot for the poor guy having to provision the server end of this crap....

D

Man you're totally racing ahead of me... I just want a basic config for an ATA that is low cost, that will let me plug a fax and cordless phone in to it and will just work,
Yes but how will your fax work, T38 what fall back codec is supported and what type of detection do you use, this will depend on the gateways being used by the Service provider, do you have Echo can on or off, does the ATA give you that option etc... yes I am throwing a lot at you Dan but seriously this is what is involved with deploying a creditable VOIP offering

My current care factor for DND is 0. I don't even care about call waiting currently....
You don't but what about the customer that does since you want to deploy these to custys ?

As for noise on the network... hummmmm really?! ...
Really and it's a big Really

Don't these units talk to each other and automatically share feature information?
No they don't not at all, how do they share this info with the softswitch, SIP Info, SIP notify, Subscribe or SIP XML these options are availabe depending on what you trying to do

Do they just sit there shouting at each other? .... , ,
yes eg you send a Subscribe for VM indication, iit's not supported by the softswitch so it replys with unsupported, now your box can just keep hammering away and the softswitch just keeps replying, you don't see the messaging or even bother looking for it but it's there chattering away, fine for one device maybe, but you deploy 100 or 1000 of them and then we have crap SIP messaging even though it is a valid message type but not for this feature activation , now that's our issue from a ITSP but it come back to poor deployment models, see where I'm going

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sbiddle

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#437213 9-Feb-2011 12:12

DonGould:

I hope the Cisco guy is reading these posts or talks to someone who is and gets the picture that his kit isn't as easy as it needs to be to configure and automate the configuration of.

While you may now find it easy, in my view it is far from being a consumer level product so far and we do need to get it to the point of being such if it is to benefit consumers in a meaningful way.

Configuration and provisioning of these devices is something best done by the VoIP provider, IMHO there should be no reason for an end user to need to touch anything in the device.

If you're interested in provisoning all the documentation and SPC compiler tools are available online, but unless you have a good understanding of VoIP you're not going to get far with this. It's certainly not something that's aimed at the average consumer, it's something aimed at VoIP providers.

DonGould

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#437218 9-Feb-2011 12:23

maverick: Cisco are very aware I believe in this space.

All evidence so far tells me that you are wrong.

I'm not saying you area actually wrong. I'm saying that the evidence that is before me suggests you are.

I have found the SPA2102 and PATA2 anything but simple to deploy.

Perhaps there is other hardware out here that I should be looking at from Cisco or some other vendor?

I'm using copy and paste, taking an hour and clearly making mistakes.

Having configured one of each, I'd like to be able to save my configuration file on my PC then just upload it to the next unit. So far I see no way to do that mentioned in either the web sites I've looked on or the documentation that came with either unit.

20 years ago I could do this with a PABX. Download the configuration, modify it on my laptop then upload it again.

Yes. I'm getting battle warn this week and my patients is running out for this crap.

ATAs aren't the only bit of kit that I have this exact same issue with.

I also have a router which I can download the config from, but can't upload it again. How poorly thought out is that?!

maverick: <big snip> in most cases it should be plug and play and the same method applies across all their product ranges, no one else comes close to a Varity of device offerings using a mass common deployment method.

With all due respect, so far I haven't even been able to figure out how to sign up for a VFX service so I can just compare the two - 2Talk/VFX. I do think I've put more effort in than the average guy would bother with...

maverick: I applaud your effort in wanting to bring VOIP to the masses from a user side

Thank you. It's proving to be anything but easy so far!

I do hope that some of my comments may empower you to make it easier for interested guys like me. I do know how much of a struggle it can be to get things done inside companies when you don't have users pushing back in a meaningful way.

D

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sbiddle

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#437227 9-Feb-2011 12:36

DonGould: Having configured one of each, I'd like to be able to save my configuration file on my PC then just upload it to the next unit. So far I see no way to do that mentioned in either the web sites I've looked on or the documentation that came with either unit.

20 years ago I could do this with a PABX. Download the configuration, modify it on my laptop then upload it again.

If you're deploying multiple devices this is all done through a provisoning file, there is no need or reason to back to each unit. You create provisioning files and put these on a TFTP or HTTP server and the device downloads it.

With a Cisco/Linksys device a common way is a standard .cfg file with generic settings for all devices, and a $MA.cfg file which uses the MAC address of the device to grab the SIP username and password.

I suggst you read the provisioning manuals for theese devices if you're having trouble.

DonGould

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#437229 9-Feb-2011 12:42

sbiddle: Configuration and provisioning of these devices is something best done by the VoIP provider, IMHO there should be no reason for an end user to need to touch anything in the device.

Nothing else in the industry works that way.

Fax I use on the Telecom or TelstraClear network that comes from HN isn't preporvisioned by Telecom. It's provisioned by the manufacture per the spec that's agreed for use in .nz and just works.

I just put in some basic ident info and make a few config choices, but it will basically function after I just plug it in.

That's how simply this tech needs to be.

sbiddle: If you're interested in provisoning all the documentation and SPC compiler tools are available online, but unless you have a good understanding of VoIP you're not going to get far with this. It's certainly not something that's aimed at the average consumer, it's something aimed at VoIP providers.

Sorry, to many TLAs from both of you, SPC?

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DonGould

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#437231 9-Feb-2011 12:44

sbiddle: I suggst you read the provisioning manuals for theese devices if you're having trouble.

Cool. If the Cisco rep is on list perhaps you'd like to provide a link to the manual that Steve is suggesting I read.

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DonGould

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#437234 9-Feb-2011 12:59

maverick: Yes but how will your fax work, T38 what fall back codec is supported and what type of detection do you use, this will depend on the gateways being used by the Service provider, do you have Echo can on or off, does the ATA give you that option etc...

Dude... www.telepermit.co.nz - it's a set of .nz standards we've been using in .nz for over 2 decades now.

Everyone should be configuring their gear and providing config info so I can just plug basic POTS stuff in.

maverick: yes I am throwing a lot at you Dan but seriously this is what is involved with deploying a creditable VOIP offering

Ok, we really have to bring change in that space... I should be able to deliver a credible VoIP offering to my pa using a $50 ATA over his dsl link without this much hassle! This is a bit bonkers.... :)

But keep throwing and perhaps tell your sales guys they need to lift their game and ring be or all your effort is going to go in 2Talks direct.

maverick: You don't but what about the customer that does since you want to deploy these to custys ?

They can ring you and pay more or just stick with Telecom who provide the service on their mobile network? ;)

See my point... I'm interested in just sorting the area that want a simple low cost service first.

maverick: yes eg you send a Subscribe for VM indication, iit's not supported by the softswitch so it replys with unsupported, now your box can just keep hammering away and the softswitch just keeps replying, you don't see the messaging or even bother looking for it but it's there chattering away, fine for one device maybe, but you deploy 100 or 1000 of them and then we have crap SIP messaging even though it is a valid message type but not for this feature activation , now that's our issue from a ITSP but it come back to poor deployment models, see where I'm going

softswitch? ITSP? VM? Dude!

Jump back to reality. I'm running dozens of client systems all talking to services/hosts/servers. Your's is just one of may applications I have chattering away on my network. I really don't care. I don't even care about spam. It's all just data I'm selling my customers.

I do hear what you're trying to say. When the noise gets out of hand I'll look at how we pull it back. But like spam, it's just not worth my time to give it attention past the delete key.

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#437251 9-Feb-2011 13:24

DonGould:
maverick: yes eg you send a Subscribe for VM indication, iit's not supported by the softswitch so it replys with unsupported, now your box can just keep hammering away and the softswitch just keeps replying, you don't see the messaging or even bother looking for it but it's there chattering away, fine for one device maybe, but you deploy 100 or 1000 of them and then we have crap SIP messaging even though it is a valid message type but not for this feature activation , now that's our issue from a ITSP but it come back to poor deployment models, see where I'm going

softswitch? ITSP? VM? Dude!

Jump back to reality. I'm running dozens of client systems all talking to services/hosts/servers. Your's is just one of may applications I have chattering away on my network. I really don't care. I don't even care about spam. It's all just data I'm selling my customers.

I do hear what you're trying to say. When the noise gets out of hand I'll look at how we pull it back. But like spam, it's just not worth my time to give it attention past the delete key.

What are you saying? You have a finite resource (bandwidth) and you are not worried if parts of your network are being used by a chatty protocol unnecessarily?

Wow. Reading from your other posts about rural broadband it seems you treat bandwidth like a limitless low cost commodity. It's not.

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