MS account questions

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rhector

23 posts

Geek

#290071 19-Oct-2021 13:55

Hi all,

I'm trying to help 'clean up' my father's setup, but my Windows experience is ... limited.

One of the issues is that he has too many email addresses - each time he gets a device, it pushes him to set up a new account with a new email address.

He also currently has two Windows machines - an old all-in-one, and a relatively new Surface (and two android devices; a phone and a tablet).

He's using Onedrive to keep his KeePass database in sync between all four.

Recently, I tried to change the primary email on his MS account to be his regular ISP address. That seemed to work, except then OneDrive stopped working (on the Surface). It doesn't seem to have the facility to change the email address it uses to log in, without creating (or signing in to) a new account - is that right?

When I tried to set up a new account with the 'new' email address, I ran into all sorts of problems. Firstly, it said I had two accounts with that email; a work and a personal one. I don't know where that came from. I tried logging in to both via the web ui, and they seemed to have the same data in them.

Anyway, I couldn't get either of them to work with the OneDrive client. I gave up and switched back to the outlook.co.nz address as primary for the MS account, and it started working again.

While I was doing this, I also checked the other computer (the AIO). It seems to log in to Onedrive with a different email address again (an ISP one this time) - one that doesn't show up on the MS account. Possibly it has a different MS account? How does that work? I'm pretty sure it is staying in sync, though I didn't explicitly check that at the time.

The goal is to get rid of the AIO (and use a docking station and big monitor with the Surface to provide a 'desktop' experience), so getting that working smoothly isn't too important. I'd like to know any MS account using that email address is gone, though, before cancelling it.

But can we achieve the goal of using one MS account, using just the ISP email address, and keeping OneDrive syncing between the three remaining devices (ideally all four in the meantime)?

Oh - there was also a third Windows device; a laptop newer than the AIO and older than the Surface. I've got that now, and have done a clean reinstall on it.

The other issue is, I'd prefer not to authenticate against MS to log in to the computer - to be honest I'm not entirely sure it's doing that now. I think the laptop might have been set up like that - it had the same password the Surface still has, so they might have been both authenticating against the same MS account? It's not the same password to log in to OneDrive etc though. But maybe it's the source of the second MS account with the ISP email?

If it is possible to authenticate locally, are there disadvantages to that?

As you can see, I'm thoroughly confused :-)

Any tips would be welcome, and I'll try to fill in any gaps by answering questions :-)

Cheers,

Richard

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#2797715 19-Oct-2021 16:17

rhector:

Recently, I tried to change the primary email on his MS account to be his regular ISP address. That seemed to work, except then OneDrive stopped working (on the Surface). It doesn't seem to have the facility to change the email address it uses to log in, without creating (or signing in to) a new account - is that right?

Correct, you can't change a Microsoft account login email.

rhector:

While I was doing this, I also checked the other computer (the AIO). It seems to log in to Onedrive with a different email address again (an ISP one this time) - one that doesn't show up on the MS account. Possibly it has a different MS account? How does that work? I'm pretty sure it is staying in sync, though I didn't explicitly check that at the time.

Different email accounts, different OneDrive, different content.

rhector:

But can we achieve the goal of using one MS account, using just the ISP email address, and keeping OneDrive syncing between the three remaining devices (ideally all four in the meantime)?

Please don't use an ISP email address to create a Microsoft account. If the ISP disappears or they stop providing email services the ability to receive communications, reset passwords, etc will be compromised.

Either use a Microsoft email service (Hotmail.com, Outlook.com) or create a Microsoft account using either your own domain (if you have one) or service like Gmail.

Seeing there's a chance of using wrong email addresses, the less is better. Use just a Microsoft-provided service and life will be easier.

rhector:

The other issue is, I'd prefer not to authenticate against MS to log in to the computer - to be honest I'm not entirely sure it's doing that now. I think the laptop might have been set up like that - it had the same password the Surface still has, so they might have been both authenticating against the same MS account? It's not the same password to log in to OneDrive etc though. But maybe it's the source of the second MS account with the ISP email?

You can authenticate with local accounts, that's not a problem, although fresh Windows 11 installs will require a Microsoft account. Also OneDrive requires a Microsoft account, although you can login with a local account and setup OneDrive with a Microsoft account - but why complicate it, just use one to login and OneDrive. The way I see it, if there's confusion now, confusion will remain with local accounts, OneDrive accounts, etc.

gbwelly

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#2797750 19-Oct-2021 17:49

Very good advice from @freitasm though I'm pretty sure I have successfully changed a Microsoft ID from one outlook.com address to outlook.co.nz by adding the new address as an alias and making it the primary. I could be wrong though.

As someone who had previously been using a paradise.net.nz email address for many years, I also strongly agree you should be cutting all ties with an ISP email address while you can do it at your leisure.

Earbanean

945 posts

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#2797756 19-Oct-2021 18:05

Is there a difference between a Microsoft account and a Microsoft 365 account? Can they have different login IDs?

Behodar

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#2797766 19-Oct-2021 18:38

gbwelly:

Very good advice from @freitasm though I'm pretty sure I have successfully changed a Microsoft ID from one outlook.com address to outlook.co.nz by adding the new address as an alias and making it the primary. I could be wrong though.

I can confirm that this works; I did it a fortnight ago.

rhector

23 posts

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#2797768 19-Oct-2021 18:43

freitasm:

rhector:

Recently, I tried to change the primary email on his MS account to be his regular ISP address. That seemed to work, except then OneDrive stopped working (on the Surface). It doesn't seem to have the facility to change the email address it uses to log in, without creating (or signing in to) a new account - is that right?

Correct, you can't change a Microsoft account login email.

Ok, now I'm more confused. I did, I think, change the login email. At least, I added an alias, and made it primary. I started to then delete the old one, but stopped when I realised it was going to delete the email account entirely, rather than just unlink it from the MS account. But then OneDrive broke, so it's a good thing I had the other email to go back to. It seems strange that it lets me make changes that are going to break other things ...

(too many quotes, apparently. I'll have to split this up)

Cheers,

Richard

rhector

23 posts

Geek

#2797769 19-Oct-2021 18:45

freitasm:

rhector:

While I was doing this, I also checked the other computer (the AIO). It seems to log in to Onedrive with a different email address again (an ISP one this time) - one that doesn't show up on the MS account. Possibly it has a different MS account? How does that work? I'm pretty sure it is staying in sync, though I didn't explicitly check that at the time.

Different email accounts, different OneDrive, different content.

That is what I expected, except that I'm sure KeePass has been staying in sync somehow ... could it have multiple OneDrives set up at the same time? I saw no sign of that.

Cheers,

Richard

rhector

23 posts

Geek

#2797770 19-Oct-2021 18:48

freitasm:

rhector:

But can we achieve the goal of using one MS account, using just the ISP email address, and keeping OneDrive syncing between the three remaining devices (ideally all four in the meantime)?

Please don't use an ISP email address to create a Microsoft account. If the ISP disappears or they stop providing email services the ability to receive communications, reset passwords, etc will be compromised.

Either use a Microsoft email service (Hotmail.com, Outlook.com) or create a Microsoft account using either your own domain (if you have one) or service like Gmail.

Seeing there's a chance of using wrong email addresses, the less is better. Use just a Microsoft-provided service and life will be easier.

Given all the other issues, I'm starting to see that sticking with the MS-provided email for the MS account makes sense. I'm not going to suggest he changes to that for regular use, though. For starters, he's had that address for (I think) a little over 25 years. If they discontinue it, we'll deal with that then - and probably get him a domain, or use one of mine, and use my server.

Cheers,

Richard

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rhector

23 posts

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#2797771 19-Oct-2021 18:50

freitasm:

rhector:

The other issue is, I'd prefer not to authenticate against MS to log in to the computer - to be honest I'm not entirely sure it's doing that now. I think the laptop might have been set up like that - it had the same password the Surface still has, so they might have been both authenticating against the same MS account? It's not the same password to log in to OneDrive etc though. But maybe it's the source of the second MS account with the ISP email?

You can authenticate with local accounts, that's not a problem, although fresh Windows 11 installs will require a Microsoft account. Also OneDrive requires a Microsoft account, although you can login with a local account and setup OneDrive with a Microsoft account - but why complicate it, just use one to login and OneDrive. The way I see it, if there's confusion now, confusion will remain with local accounts, OneDrive accounts, etc.

Centralised authentication is all very well for a corporate environment, but using it for a personal computer, authenticating to an external entity, just sounds like a bad idea. It presumably means MS gets to know what his password is.

Thanks,

Richard

freitasm

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#2797773 19-Oct-2021 18:53

Yes you can change but only alias - and I am not sure you can add a non-Microsoft service email as an alias.

rhector

23 posts

Geek

#2797787 19-Oct-2021 19:02

freitasm:

Yes you can change but only alias - and I am not sure you can add a non-Microsoft service email as an alias.

It certainly did let me add a non-MS email as an alias. It also let me set it as primary. And when I went to delete the old primary (the outlook.co.nz one), the only warnings were about making sure it wasn't in use anywhere else, like as a Facebook contact email. Nothing about breaking the MS account ...

Cheers,

Richard

ANglEAUT

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#2797862 19-Oct-2021 21:27

rhector: Centralised authentication is all very well for a corporate environment, but using it for a personal computer, authenticating to an external entity, just sounds like a bad idea. It presumably means MS gets to know what his password is.

Having a cloud enabled ID allows the sync'ing of browser history, settings, clipboard history & application purchases / licenses. Also makes Windows as a Service easier
No, MS doesn't get to know your password. Microsoft doesn't store passwords in clear text. Some form of a hash is compared between the local device & the MS cloud
1. Back in the day, websites stored user passwords in clear text or using a weak hash or a predictive salt. Those days are mostly gone
2. Any other free email provider or website requiring a login "could" "know your password" as well for that matter. The have to store some value to compare what you are typing into the password field and verify the correctness

Please keep this GZ community vibrant by contributing in a constructive & respectful manner.

freitasm

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#2797865 19-Oct-2021 21:29

ANglEAUT:

Having a cloud enabled ID allows the sync'ing of browser history, settings, clipboard history & application purchases / licenses. Also makes Windows as a Service easier
No, MS doesn't get to know your password. Microsoft doesn't store passwords in clear text. Some form of a hash is compared between the local device & the MS cloud

Back in the day, websites stored user passwords in clear text or using a weak hash or a predictive salt. Those days are mostly gone
Any other free email provider or website requiring a login "could" "know your password" as well for that matter. The have to store some value to compare what you are typing into the password field and verify the correctness

Even better, you can now login to Microsoft accounts without a password - using either a push notification to the authenticator app on your phone or a hardware key.

rhector

23 posts

Geek

#2809267 8-Nov-2021 12:55

ANglEAUT:

rhector: Centralised authentication is all very well for a corporate environment, but using it for a personal computer, authenticating to an external entity, just sounds like a bad idea. It presumably means MS gets to know what his password is.

Having a cloud enabled ID allows the sync'ing of browser history, settings, clipboard history & application purchases / licenses. Also makes Windows as a Service easier
No, MS doesn't get to know your password. Microsoft doesn't store passwords in clear text. Some form of a hash is compared between the local device & the MS cloud

Back in the day, websites stored user passwords in clear text or using a weak hash or a predictive salt. Those days are mostly gone
Any other free email provider or website requiring a login "could" "know your password" as well for that matter. The have to store some value to compare what you are typing into the password field and verify the correctness

Sorry for the lag.

1. Yes (though I don't necessarily want that from MS), but that doesn't need to be tied to the device login, surely? And Windows as a Service ... sounds like something I don't want.

2. If the device is sending a simple hash of the password, then that's essentially equivalent to the password. If it's a challenge-response system (like CHAP), then IIRC they need to know the cleartext password. If it's something more complex, like an SSH key, then I don't think it would work across devices without copying keys around?

2.1 Yes, though not gone enough :-( Even though it was known to be a bad idea before websites were a thing.

2.2 Yes, but they only know (or can find out) the password for that site. Not from what they've stored, but from what you put in the form when you log in. And this is why we don't re-use passwords across different organisations.

Cheers,

Richard

rhector

23 posts

Geek

#2809270 8-Nov-2021 13:00

Another question ...

I set up my father's MS account on a second laptop, to make sure he has something to use while we work on the main one. Having set it up, I can no longer log in to www.office.com using Edge, with his MS account, on that machine. I can log in fine from Firefox on Debian, and I can log in fine from Chrome on the machine in question. Edge seems to be deciding his email address isn't valid to log in with, before even trying? Is that normal? Is it fixable?

I was able to use Chrome to download and install MS365 using his existing licence.

Cheers,

Richard

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#2809307 8-Nov-2021 14:04

Earbanean:

Is there a difference between a Microsoft account and a Microsoft 365 account? Can they have different login IDs?

@Earbanean they are completely different accounts and have to be different email addresses (logins). A number of years ago you could have the same email address for both but it caused confusion so they killed off that ability.

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