Are Lawyers responsible for making sure document correct.

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rugrat

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#303244 27-Jan-2023 13:01

Know not legal advice here, just interested in peoples views if wish to share.

A power of attorney was done online.

Sucessor2 Attorney was listed as same person as main attorney, obvious error.

Main attorney can act alone, but successor attorney has to act jointly with successor 2.

Successor 2 attorney not signed.

Above is brief summary. Lawyers were present when signing physically so I would think they should know what is what, and make sure things signed in right place.

Bank refusing to accept document as conflict in successor attorney part even though first part ok.

Even if successor attorney 2 signed the bank would still have problem as how can a successor attorney be the main one.

Contacted Lawyers responsible (public trust), have email response from them saying that as document not signed on successor 2 that it is invalid and onus is on parents that it is correct and they are not able to provide legal advice.

So they took money for an invalid document, and the signing was not done online but with public trusts own lawyers present, it doesn’t seem right to me.

”As the documents were created using our online service using the self-service function, the onus was on your parents to ensure the documents are correct before signing. We aren’t able to provide you or your parents with legal advice as to challenging the bank’s decision not to accept the EPA as Public Trust is not acting on behalf of your father. If you wish to challenge the bank’s decision, you will need to seek your own independent legal advice.”

”Your EPA will not be valid until signed by all parties”

Some pasted parts from email they sent.

I think I’ll be wary about doing any future legal agreements online from now.

Probably hard to follow, but I’ve tried to explain best I can.
Summary, public trust has taken money, witnessed signatures and then called document invalid, (my interpretation of what pasted from email above about part not being signed) and refusing to help out legally.

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#3027846 27-Jan-2023 13:13

Who made the mistake? A lawyer? I'd make a complaint against them to their professional body.

https://www.lawsociety.org.nz/for-the-public/complaining-about-a-lawyer/

I'd have thought that you pay professionals to make sure these technical mistakes do not happen.

I don't know if you are in the right or wrong, but, their professional body will.

wellygary

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#3027863 27-Jan-2023 13:41

Which lawyer is public Trust?? (Main) (successor) or (successor2)?

OldGeek

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#3027870 27-Jan-2023 13:58

Looking at their website, the Public Trust organisation is not a legal practice and therefore if they produce or do anything they have no professional liability as a practicing lawyer would do. I suggest you seek help from your local CAB - who may well have local lawyers that offer free clinics to help you out (www.cab.org.nz) or alternatively engage a lawyer to get this sorted.

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rugrat

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#3027920 27-Jan-2023 15:26

wellygary:

Which lawyer is public Trust?? (Main) (successor) or (successor2)?

It’s power of attorney, not Lawyers name on successor etc bits, but names of people that can operate other persons bank account if they become incapacitated/incapable.

There is public trust stamp on each page from memory as they had people present to witness everything and even told of where signatures needed etc, but according to them there is no onus on them for mistakes.

rugrat

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#3027921 27-Jan-2023 15:33

OldGeek:

Looking at their website, the Public Trust organisation is not a legal practice and therefore if they produce or do anything they have no professional liability as a practicing lawyer would do. I suggest you seek help from your local CAB - who may well have local lawyers that offer free clinics to help you out (www.cab.org.nz) or alternatively engage a lawyer to get this sorted.

Thanks, sounds like maybe there should be a warning out there not to use Public Trust for anything legal if that’s the case.

I am considering laying a complaint, but if above correct then will go no where.

Also someone told me the family court would be able to sort it as well, so looking into that.

Thank you for giving possible options.

gzt

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#3028108 27-Jan-2023 22:56

Is the fault with the document template or is the fault with the information entered into the document by the user?

rugrat

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#3028113 27-Jan-2023 23:34

gzt: Is the fault with the document template or is the fault with the information entered into the document by the user?

The information entered, but when they actually came round and chatted with us in person I’m sure they changed some information on it before final signing.

Even though it was initially done online, they did visit in person, believe they updated some stuff after chatting to us.

They then came back for signing. Everyone was present accept myself. I went into their office in town for my signing.

There was never meant to be a second successor only first.

They went through the signing pointing out where to sign, and now they are saying it’s invalid as part of it is not signed even though it was them in person saying where to sign.

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gzt

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#3028129 28-Jan-2023 00:30

Is this a service you paid for?

rugrat

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#3028130 28-Jan-2023 00:36

gzt: Is this a service you paid for?

Yes, it was from memory around $200 to $300 a person so they received around $400-$600 all up.

Same error is on second one as well.

Tzoi

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#3028138 28-Jan-2023 04:45

I think there's a bit of confusion here re power of attorneys v lawyers. Power of attorney just gives someone the right to make decisions on someone else's behalf. It doesn't have to be a lawyer, despite the 'attorney' part of the name. Public Trust are a corporate trustee that provide trustee services, including power of attorneys.

This would be more a contractual question with what you agreed with Public Trust for them to do I would think.

Daynger

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#3028186 28-Jan-2023 11:02

Being that it is a legal document the lawyers should be very careful as to what they are signing.

Whoever drafted the document is responsible but it should have been picked up by the lawyers signing it.

Stu1

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#3028194 28-Jan-2023 11:27

I just did a trust deed for a family member through a lawyer 3 attempts to get it correct , the bank picked up the error not the lawyer . You pay professionals to get it right quality seems non existent these days . Other recent example was on an estate entering the date of death of my mother as the date she was last seen alive

gzt

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#3028245 28-Jan-2023 12:48

rugrat:
gzt: Is this a service you paid for?
Yes, it was from memory around $200 to $300 a person so they received around $400-$600 all up.

Can you tell me the job titles of the people that visited you who were paid?

Wheelbarrow01

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#3028632 29-Jan-2023 01:35

gzt:
Can you tell me the job titles of the people that visited you who were paid?

I suspect the answer is "salespeople" [this is sarcasm btw]. I'm obviously not a lawyer, but my 2 cents is below.

The NZ Law Society website says this regarding Enduring Powers of Attorney: "Your signature must be witnessed by a lawyer, a qualified legal executive or an authorised officer or employee of a trustee corporation who is independent of the attorney. That witness must give you an explanation of the effects and implications of the EPA and advice on certain matters".

It's important to note that EPAs do not have to be witnessed or overseen by a lawyer however there are a number of advantages to getting full, independent advice from a lawyer with experience in this area (source: communitylaw.org.nz). This may be why Public Trust say they cannot provide legal advice - they are not acting as lawyers in this matter and as such, the representatives who visited probably weren't lawyers - merely "authorised officers or employees" as per the above paragraph.

But to my mind, your father contracted Public Trust to provide a service - namely producing, witnessing and executing the correct signing of documents and the necessary advice beforehand. They appear to have failed in that duty. They said in their email response that they are not acting for your father - if that is correct then they have no business advising your father about an EPA, so the whole transaction would appear rather tenuous, and your father simply hasn't got what he paid for.

From what I have seen, Public Trust's main goal is to wring the maximum billable hours out of every customer. Their "free" wills are only free if you name Public Trust as executor, and I've heard horror stories about how many fees they come up with to administer even a simple estate, to the point where they get the lion's share, and the family gets the crumbs. Personally I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole.

For wills, EPAs, sale or purchase of property and estate administration, it's my opinion that you can't beat your local community law practice. My family and I have used the same small law office for all these things over the past 20 years. I am on a first name basis with my lawyer, he knows his stuff, takes a genuine interest in me and doesn't charge the earth. Last time I visited he excitedly showed me the new home brew kit he'd just setup in a room of his office (and didn't charge me for the time or the beer lol). He came to the funerals of both my parents because he genuinely cared about them.

Do what you can to get your money back from Public Trust for a sh1tty job half done (Consumer Guarantees Act maybe?), then go see a proper lawyer to get the documentation executed competently.

jonathan18

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#3028657 29-Jan-2023 09:42

Wheelbarrow01:

From what I have seen, Public Trust's main goal is to wring the maximum billable hours out of every customer. Their "free" wills are only free if you name Public Trust as executor, and I've heard horror stories about how many fees they come up with to administer even a simple estate, to the point where they get the lion's share, and the family gets the crumbs. Personally I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole.

@Wheelbarrow01, how sure are you that what you've written above actually reflects the current situation re Public Trust? That old model of free will for naming the Public Trust as executor is no longer the case, and I understand hasn't been for a while.

Check out their website - all wills are now charged for, and even under the cheapest option ($79) the second bullet is "Choose your own executor/trustee".

https://www.publictrust.co.nz/products-and-services/making-a-will/making-a-will-pricing/

I'm not a Public Trust apologist - and I too am aware of anecdata of horror stories related to that old model, and it could well be that poor practices exist still (as they do with lawyers of all stripes - I've had to deal with incompetent 'advice' provided by my mother's well-heeled lawyers). I do, think, however it's important that it's acknowledged the current situation isn't what you portray above. (A close relative of mine and his partner have used the PT for their wills; they were both comfortable with the new model [and she's a lawyer]).

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