Joining a union - newbie questions

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heavenlywild

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#312632 3-May-2024 08:54

I am currently on an iEA. My colleague recently mentioned that he had joined the union (PSA). I am a newbie to this whole world of the unions and collective agreements.

The collective agreement says you will get X increase in salary in July. Obviously my IEA doesn't have anything, other than the standard "performance review" clauses.

What I can't get my head around is that you can "jump ship" and get on a collective even without your employer's agreement. How would the employ be able to budget for such a situation, where suddenly they need to find X amount of money because people have moved across from their IEAs?

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#3225775 3-May-2024 08:57

Interested to see the answer to this. My expectation is that you won't get a pay rise unless you have a large employer who already has a collective agreement with the union.

Qazzy03

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#3225777 3-May-2024 08:59

I can only speak about myself and where I could.
Joined the PSA due to issues with management interactions with myself and coworkers being toxic.

My IEA would always match the PSA collective agreement.
Most people stayed on the IEA because it was better than the collective due to grandparents conditions.

Tldr, the IEA is not worse than the collective. Where I work.

lurker

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#3225778 3-May-2024 08:59

In my company they always match pay rises to union members. Maybe even the ones that don't are budgeting for the same outcome.

scuwp

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#3225780 3-May-2024 09:05

Same here. IANAL but consider it may be because the law requires employers to be fair and equitable, or words to that effect, so they can't disadvantage IEA workers over union workers, at least not substantially. There are slightly different provisions within the PSA or Etu agreements that guarantee certain things in my work place, but my opinion is they are not worth the cost of membership. I was a PSA member for a very long time, they never achieved anything of substance for me and found them quite ineffective. That was a while ago now though.

Lazy is such an ugly word, I prefer to call it selective participation

heavenlywild

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#3225782 3-May-2024 09:11

Yes I work for a large employer and 50% of our people are union members.

It is very clear that if I don't join the union by July I would lose out on a significant pay rise and bonus.

What I don't understand is I can sign an IEA and then jump ship without the need for my employer to a-OK it. And suddenly I am entitled to all this extra money?

heavenlywild

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#3225783 3-May-2024 09:12

johno1234:

Interested to see the answer to this. My expectation is that you won't get a pay rise unless you have a large employer who already has a collective agreement with the union.

Yes, that is the case, there is a collective agreement in place with the employer.

SaltyNZ

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#3225786 3-May-2024 09:16

heavenlywild:

What I don't understand is I can sign an IEA and then jump ship without the need for my employer to a-OK it. And suddenly I am entitled to all this extra money?

So you're saying the union membership grants you better conditions than you could negotiate on your own? Yeah, that's the point of unions alright.

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heavenlywild

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#3225787 3-May-2024 09:18

SaltyNZ:

heavenlywild:

What I don't understand is I can sign an IEA and then jump ship without the need for my employer to a-OK it. And suddenly I am entitled to all this extra money?

So you're saying the union membership grants you better conditions than you could negotiate on your own? Yeah, that's the point of unions alright.

Which is crazy. Why would anyone not be on a collective if that is the case?

And how does an employer even budget for this extra cost? Say someone earns 70k. Suddenly they join the collective that gives them 5k increase in July. Suddenly you have 100 people join. How does the employer suddenly come up with 500k at the drop of a hat?

SaltyNZ

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#3225790 3-May-2024 09:22

heavenlywild:

Which is crazy. Why would anyone not be on a collective if that is the case?

Indeed.

And how does an employer even budget for this extra cost?

If the employer can't budget for a cost they absolutely know is coming then perhaps they should buy fewer lattes and skip the avocado on toast.

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wellygary

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#3225791 3-May-2024 09:25

scuwp:

Same here. IANAL but consider it may be because the law requires employers to be fair and equitable, or words to that effect, so they can't disadvantage IEA workers over union workers, at least not substantially.

When Labour replaced the Employment contracts act with the The Employment Relations act in 2000, they included a clause making it unlawful to discriminate against an employee base on their union membership,

(S 104)

It was written to prevent employers from paying IEC staff more than collective staff, and hence tempting staff from joining a Union. ( and therefore protect unions)

However the way it was written the gate swings both ways, and it means T&Cs negotiated under the collective, MUST be offered to IEC staff

SaltyNZ

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#3225793 3-May-2024 09:29

wellygary:

However the way it was written the gate swings both ways, and it means T&Cs negotiated under the collective, MUST be offered to IEC staff

Yes. The point of the Fair Pay Agreements law was that a collective agreement formed the floor for conditions with individuals still free to negotiate better than that if they wanted to. Mr Libertarian has reduced worker's choices by repealing it.

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heavenlywild

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#3225794 3-May-2024 09:29

scuwp:

However the way it was written the gate swings both ways, and it means T&Cs negotiated under the collective, MUST be offered to IEC staff

Ah, does this apply to all collectives? That basically means if I don't sign up I should also get the salary increase if those on collectives are entitled to it? But in the collective it does state you must be a member in order to be eligible?

Update: Correction, it doesn't say you must be a member to get the salary increase although they do make it read as if it is for PSA members only.

Lizard1977

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#3225801 3-May-2024 09:43

The conditions of collective agreements will vary from workplace to workplace, even within a sector. I work in local government, and I belong to the PSA. But the conditions in my workplace are not as favourable as at a similar council (and may be more favourable than some others).

The point of a union is the collective bargaining power - the more people that join, the more power they have to set expectations of their employer. This is a principal reason why the governments of Labour and National in the 80s and 90s made significant strides to remove the power of unions with the introduction of the Employment Contracts Act - it makes the situation more favourable to employers, drives down costs of employment, and improves the economic return to business. If a significant majority of the workforce is unionised then they can make more demands of the employer (under the threat of collective action such as a strike, perhaps). It's largely a numbers game - the more people you have, the better chance you have of bargaining for better conditions.

In my experience, the general conditions offered under legislation are enough for most people so they don't see the value in joining a union. They figure they can save themselves some dollars (and to be fair, the fees can be substantial when you're not earning very much to begin with), and get by with what the legislation guarantees (minimum paid holidays, public holidays, sick days, meal breaks etc). I see it a little differently. I joined the union because it supports others who may not be able to support themselves. I also see it as a backstop against a repeat of what happened in the 80s and 90s, where unions were broken apart and employee benefits reduced.

As for how the employer manages the cost, I'm not sure. In my workplace, the union negotiates for the collective agreement, but the salary scales apply to all staff regardless. Any changes in remuneration are applied to union members 6 weeks ahead of those on individual agreements (the "union advantage"). So there's no big salary jump for those on a collective vs individual agreement, just "first dibs". And while an individual can negotiate different terms with the employer, in practice they will be receiving substantially the same terms as the collective, so the employer benefits from having to negotiate "once" with the union, rather than over 500 times with each individual.

wellygary

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#3225802 3-May-2024 09:49

heavenlywild:

Update: Correction, it doesn't say you must be a member to get the salary increase although they do make it read as if it is for PSA members only.

The Collective by definition is for members of the Union,

Do your current salary rates match what is in the current collective? - likely yes,

Eventually the T+Cs that apply to the collective from July will be offered to non collective contracts, (its the law)

jonathan18

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#3225803 3-May-2024 09:53

Employers will take fiscal cost into account when negotiating a CEA, so it's not like it will be (or shouldn't be) a surprise to them.

IME most benefits and improved conditions negotiated as part of a CEA are passed onto those on IEAs, especially those related to pay. Sometimes there may be delay in extending the changes to non-members, or backdating them (or a longer backdating period) for members, but typically non-members get these kinds of benefits in the end (it'll be interesting to see if something like this occurs in your workplace). Sometimes this happens even when an employer has committed to them being only for those on the CEA. (My union has taken my employer to employment court over such behaviour.)

It's not usual for there to be huge benefits provided only to those on a CEA - employers are more comfortable providing these in such forms as a contribution towards the cost of glasses as the sums are relatively small, the benefits don't apply to everyone, and takes active work to claim.

For this, and other reasons, I doubt there's typically a huge rush for non-members to sign up.

@heavenlywild: my suggestion is to have a chat with one of your local delegates - you'll get a sense as to what else your union is doing in your workplace, what other benefits you may get from membership, and what you're contributing to as a member. If you're not aware of who to contact, just give the PSA call centre a call (0508 367 772) and they'll point you in the right direction.

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