Should New Zealand invest in nuclear power plants?

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#3228909 11-May-2024 01:57

Solar Zero delivered 30MW into the grid this morning:

Solar Zero: Following last night’s announcement from Transpower and the Minister for Energy, Simeon Brown, of a potential energy grid emergency, SolarZero’s Virtual Power Plant technology provided 30MW of desperately needed energy into the grid this morning and helped Kiwis keep the lights on.

Including 5MW in the South Island. Decentralised generation and storage working exactly as advertised. The press release states New Zealand does not have sufficient market mechanisms and regulation to enable decentralised peak load supply.

MikeB4

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#3228912 11-May-2024 07:05

johno1234:
MikeB4:

@johno1234 When(not if) the subduction zone slips it expected to generate a earthquake(s)It will probably cause other faults to fire. at magnitude 8 plus. GNS science has lots of data.

Maybe. Data is not knowledge nor understanding. You’re still posting your own assertions and not actual citations to support them.

Fukushima was the victim of a tsunami not directly an earthquake. Should not have been built on the coast.

All our hydro plants are still in place a hundred years later for some. And they aren’t in the low risk zone.

That is utter nonsense. No earthquake, no tsunami, no nuclear accident. The Japanese quake was a subduction zone slip well out to sea. The mainland was heavily impacted by the quake and tsunamis, get the picture? All three of our main island are in subduction zone danger zones. GNS has models based on historical data current state of the these zones. They also have historical data from subduction events around the Pacific. Their models show clearly why flirting with nuclear power in Aotearoa is of extreme risk.

Dingbatt

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#3228938 11-May-2024 09:46

MikeB4:

That is utter nonsense.

Except it isn’t nonsense. It’s all verifiable fact. When the Tohoku earthquake occurred in 2011 (the one that produced the tsunami) all six reactors at Fukushima SCRAMed as they were designed to, effectively halting the nuclear reaction. The residual heat was then being removed by cooling water when the tsunami arrived and inundated the site. Because generation had been lost at the site , backup generators were powering the coolant pumps. But as the generators were situated at ground level when the sea water arrived they failed. No coolant led to the No1 reactor overheating and the subsequent failure.

If the backup generators had been situated on the roof of the facility, it is unlikely there would have been a failure. Building a nuclear plant on a coastal plain in tsunami risk area and then putting the backup generators at ground level produced the circumstances that led to this. Of note is that reactors 5 and 6 at Fukushima are on a plateau above the rest of the plant and were unaffected by the tsunami. They shutdown after sensing the earthquake, but were able to resume normal operation.

“16000 people died (most drowned) 6000 were injured, quarter of a million were made homeless, one and a quarter million buildings were destroyed, partly collapsed or partially damaged by the earthquake and tsunami. No one was killed by radiation exposure, and projections of excess cancer from accumulated exposure are negligible” (Wikipedia entry : Dhoku Earthquake and Tsunami- Damage and Effects).

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

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#3228946 11-May-2024 10:27

Again subduction slip ....tsunami.....nuclear incident.

No subduction slip....no tsunami....no nuclear incident.

Aotearoa was created by subduction and has subduction zones down the eastern coast of the North Island, across the Cook Strait, down the central divide of the South Island and on into the Southern Ocean. All these zones have caused massive shifts in the past and will again in the future and near future.

tweake

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#3228956 11-May-2024 11:02

why do we need more power? https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/cold-houses-to-blame-for-people-needing-to-blast-the-heater-green-building-council/P2H2B7ETNZBFFHSMMYW5KE46AU/

Green building advocates say winter power cuts wouldn’t be an issue if New Zealand’s housing building standards were not decades behind most other countries in the OECD.

“Research from Otago University shows if we built to best-practice standards, as the majority of the OECD already are, we could reduce the winter peak by 75 per cent. That’s huge, and not only takes pressure off the grid, but would be a massive win for New Zealanders’ health and cost of living.”

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#3228960 11-May-2024 11:18

...there's so much we (households) could do, if only it all wasn't so damn expensive.

“The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” -John Kenneth Galbraith

rb99

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#3228967 11-May-2024 11:35

tweake:

why do we need more power? https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/cold-houses-to-blame-for-people-needing-to-blast-the-heater-green-building-council/P2H2B7ETNZBFFHSMMYW5KE46AU/

Green building advocates say winter power cuts wouldn’t be an issue if New Zealand’s housing building standards were not decades behind most other countries in the OECD.

“Research from Otago University shows if we built to best-practice standards, as the majority of the OECD already are, we could reduce the winter peak by 75 per cent. That’s huge, and not only takes pressure off the grid, but would be a massive win for New Zealanders’ health and cost of living.”

The greens will conveniently not mention the elephant in the room - the charging of electric vehicles.

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gzt

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#3228971 11-May-2024 11:51

tweake: Green building advocates say winter power cuts wouldn’t be an issue if New Zealand’s housing building standards were not decades behind most other countries in the OECD. “Research from Otago University shows if we built to best-practice standards, as the majority of the OECD already are, we could reduce the winter peak by 75 per cent. That’s huge, and not only takes pressure off the grid, but would be a massive win for New Zealanders’ health and cost of living.”

and because we have a housing issue this is yet another reason to catch up on that already, again.

Dingbatt

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#3228973 11-May-2024 11:56

MikeB4:

Again subduction slip ....tsunami.....nuclear incident.

No subduction slip....no tsunami....no nuclear incident.

Okay, so by your reckoning we should be evacuating Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch and Dunedin due to perceived risk from tsunami and/or earthquake? No buildings below 50m above sea level? No hydro-electric dams within 200km of a fault line?

Your logic works equally as cars…….car accidents…….death, so get rid of cars.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

tweake

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#3228980 11-May-2024 12:03

rb99:

...there's so much we (households) could do, if only it all wasn't so damn expensive.

i think the cost is more of a perception and cultural issue rather than a real money issue.

part of that is caused by keeping the standards so low for so long, that an increase to catch up is a big shock.

also that kiwis have to culture of moving houses a huge amount, so they don't want to spend anything on homes that doesn't make them money when they sell. i still remember people complaining about having to have any insulation at all. they would rather spend that small amount of money on better finishes so they can sell it for higher price.

also there is a few things like building a bit smaller. or reducing the amount of window area, which has a huge impact on insulation value, but they don't get that look which is so profitable.

retrofits are always problematic as many it would be cheaper to demolish and start again. but with old crap buildings priced to hell and back, we simply splash some paint on and sell it for profit. the building industry itself keeps promoting old bad buildings as being good by giving them awards. its all about looking good for resale not good performance to live in.

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#3228982 11-May-2024 12:05

mattwnz: One factor is also the price to decommission a nuclear reactor at the end of its life. In the UK I read that is about 12 billion NZD per reactor. UK are in the process of decommissioning their current ones. Who would end up paying for that. It does feel a bit like false economy.

I don't think people use a nuclear reactor for economy, but necessity.

"We need electricity but we don't have enough water to generate it, wind alone won't give all we need, solar is not enough, geothermal is very localised and burning gas and coal will get us in even more trouble. What can we do?"

So my view is that if studies take time, legislation takes time, planning takes time, building takes time, then we shouldn't wait for the inevitable and at least commission a study. Because at some point we might need it and then all this time will catch up fast.

freitasm

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#3228984 11-May-2024 12:12

tweake:

rb99:

...there's so much we (households) could do, if only it all wasn't so damn expensive.

i think the cost is more of a perception and cultural issue rather than a real money issue.

It is a real money issue. As I posted before in this thread, we just finished painting the whole house outside (stripping down to the wood) and replacing the roof.

This cost was in the high five figures alone.

If we put a solar energy solution it would push the cost into low six figures.

We have to keep living, pay for our kid's studies and there is no way we would be able to afford that now.

Perhaps revisit in a couple of years, now that the roof is a new one.

tweake

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#3228985 11-May-2024 12:12

gzt:
tweake: Green building advocates say winter power cuts wouldn’t be an issue if New Zealand’s housing building standards were not decades behind most other countries in the OECD. “Research from Otago University shows if we built to best-practice standards, as the majority of the OECD already are, we could reduce the winter peak by 75 per cent. That’s huge, and not only takes pressure off the grid, but would be a massive win for New Zealanders’ health and cost of living.”

and because we have a housing issue this is yet another reason to catch up on that already, again.

yes. we don't seam to have the retrofit programs for older homes that many overseas countries do. some are very big on helping people improve housing which in turn cuts energy consumption. traditionally kiwis never heated homes with electricity. our usage is low because we don't heat at all. but thats changing (as many people here show) and the expectations are changing. which overall means more power usage.

we only just caught up to overseas insulation standards for new builds last year, and yet we are already falling behind as other countries continue to improve their standards. also we have no standards on air leakage which is a big contributing factor to heat loss in well insulated homes. the standard is only insulation not keeping the home warm, an important difference.

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#3228986 11-May-2024 12:13

Dingbatt: If the backup generators had been situated on the roof of the facility, it is unlikely there would have been a failure. Building a nuclear plant on a coastal plain in tsunami risk area and then putting the backup generators at ground level produced the circumstances that led to this.

Hindsight is perfect every time. That mitigation you mention is the absolute total bare minimum to prevent the 'accidental' meltdown that occurred and does not cover all the issues identified and all things that actually should have been done let alone all the risks of that site and design.

rb99

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#3228988 11-May-2024 12:15

tweake:

rb99:

...there's so much we (households) could do, if only it all wasn't so damn expensive.

i think the cost is more of a perception and cultural issue rather than a real money issue.

part of that is caused by keeping the standards so low for so long, that an increase to catch up is a big shock.

also that kiwis have to culture of moving houses a huge amount, so they don't want to spend anything on homes that doesn't make them money when they sell. i still remember people complaining about having to have any insulation at all. they would rather spend that small amount of money on better finishes so they can sell it for higher price.

also there is a few things like building a bit smaller. or reducing the amount of window area, which has a huge impact on insulation value, but they don't get that look which is so profitable.

retrofits are always problematic as many it would be cheaper to demolish and start again. but with old crap buildings priced to hell and back, we simply splash some paint on and sell it for profit. the building industry itself keeps promoting old bad buildings as being good by giving them awards. its all about looking good for resale not good performance to live in.

All good points, but at the same time, as Frietasm said (somewhere) high 5 figures for a paint job and a new roof...

We'd like to do lots of things, but at least $1000 a window to replace (the last time I checked prices for that was over a decade ago), by the dozen, or solar (without a battery), for maybe $15000 plus, or heating for more than one room (ducted system for us was $25000 plus)...

“The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” -John Kenneth Galbraith

rb99

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