Climate Change Thread

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Ultimate Geek

#3111453 3-Aug-2023 14:49

frankv:

I think he means that the rest of MSM isn't impartial either. The right claim that everything except Fox News is lefty government-sponsored propaganda, whereas the left claim that Fox News is right-wing corparatist oligarchy propaganda. For once I agree with @Geektastic... the only difference between left & right on this issue is where you draw the line between truth and propaganda.

Well that part is certainly true. 😀

The objective and verifiable truth is that global warming/heating/boiling (delete to suit ideological preference) is real.

The difference between left and right seems more and more to be coming down to the left's preference for acting collectively to achieve a perceived gain versus the right's preference for the personal "freedom" to do whatever you want regardless of the impact on others.

In that regards it isn't that different to previous arguments about banning smoking in bars/restaurants or current ones about reducing speed limits in front of schools, low traffic zones and the ULEZ in London.

But the stakes are somewhat higher when it's the "freedom" to make billions from oil extraction and drive a ute at 130km/h butting up against having a livable planet in 50-100 years time.

The sad fact is that there always plenty of people who will refuse to listen to Cassandra.

It's all just Project Fear, right?

SaltyNZ

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#3111454 3-Aug-2023 14:51

MikeAqua:

We'll probably have a few chooks and ducks.

Chickens are fun to have around and turn kitchen scraps into eggs. Presumably if you're looking for disaster-proofing you'd also want a rooster (although hens do live for a good few years as long you're not a battery farmer expecting 2 eggs a day from every bird). Roosters are less fun to have around. The last one we had was OK with me but he used to attack the girls - MIL, wife and our daughter. But then one day he got sick so I had off him and that problem solved itself.

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johno1234

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#3111456 3-Aug-2023 14:57

SaltyNZ:

MikeAqua:

We'll probably have a few chooks and ducks.

Chickens are fun to have around and turn kitchen scraps into eggs. Presumably if you're looking for disaster-proofing you'd also want a rooster (although hens do live for a good few years as long you're not a battery farmer expecting 2 eggs a day from every bird). Roosters are less fun to have around. The last one we had was OK with me but he used to attack the girls - MIL, wife and our daughter. But then one day he got sick so I had off him and that problem solved itself.

Roosters are all well and good if you are a "morning" person. Otherwise, not so much.

BlargHonk

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#3111523 3-Aug-2023 15:55

johno1234:

Roosters are all well and good if you are a "morning" person. Otherwise, not so much.

You also need to check your council regs with a Rooster. Ours are fine with Chickens in towns/urban areas, but not with roosters.

kingdragonfly

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#3111542 3-Aug-2023 17:23

Coal accounted for nearly 61 percent of China's electricity generation in 2022.

Beijing Destroyed by Biblical Floods - Chinese Communist Party (CCP) Panics

The China Show

tdgeek

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#3111557 3-Aug-2023 18:00

kingdragonfly: Coal accounted for nearly 61 percent of China's electricity generation in 2022.

Beijing Destroyed by Biblical Floods - Chinese Communist Party (CCP) Panics

The China Show

True

I think you will find that China's excessive FF use ended up very much elsewhere.

From a recent post, China's per capita emissions is about the same as ours. NZ does very little manufacturing these days. China manufactures for everybody, that matters.

Geektastic

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#3111618 3-Aug-2023 21:08

gzt:
Geektastic: “Rishi Sunak announced hundreds of new licences for North Sea oil and gas extraction on Monday and said Labour’s plans to end new exploration were “bad for the environment”. On a trip to Scotland on Monday, the Prime Minister argued that the Government’s policy of “maxing out” developments in the North Sea was compatible with net zero.

Now you're on shaky ground - quoting a guy who seems to think housing refugees on ~~prison barges~~ ahem temporary floating accommodation is a just a wonderful solution while even conservative MPs are not happy with it.

I would not expect Sunak to continue fossil exploration for the wholesome benefit of the climate really. I do think Sunak's attempted justification is a point worth examining. If it was a one-to-one swap I expect he'd be right. In practice it depends on the availability of non-polluting renewables and I'd like to know more about the UKs current investment pattern and if Sunak's government is really committed to net zero as he implies.

Mostly illegal immigrants rather than refugees, currently costing the British taxpayers some NZ$15 million a day to accommodate. It is hardly unreasonable for a government to seek ways of reducing such expenditure.

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Azzura

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#3111675 4-Aug-2023 08:11

https://www.science.org/content/article/changing-clouds-unforeseen-test-geoengineering-fueling-record-ocean-warmth

From the article -

But researchers are now waking up to another factor, one that could be filed under the category of unintended consequences: disappearing clouds known as ship tracks. Regulations imposed in 2020 by the United Nations’s International Maritime Organization (IMO) have cut ships’ sulfur pollution by more than 80% and improved air quality worldwide. The reduction has also lessened the effect of sulfate particles in seeding and brightening the distinctive low-lying, reflective clouds that follow in the wake of ships and help cool the planet. The 2020 IMO rule “is a big natural experiment,” says Duncan Watson-Parris, an atmospheric physicist at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography. “We’re changing the clouds.”

By dramatically reducing the number of ship tracks, the planet has warmed up faster, several new studies have found. That trend is magnified in the Atlantic, where maritime traffic is particularly dense. In the shipping corridors, the increased light represents a 50% boost to the warming effect of human carbon emissions. It’s as if the world suddenly lost the cooling effect from a fairly large volcanic eruption each year, says Michael Diamond, an atmospheric scientist at Florida State University.

tdgeek

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#3111677 4-Aug-2023 08:19

Azzura:

https://www.science.org/content/article/changing-clouds-unforeseen-test-geoengineering-fueling-record-ocean-warmth

From the article -

But researchers are now waking up to another factor, one that could be filed under the category of unintended consequences: disappearing clouds known as ship tracks. Regulations imposed in 2020 by the United Nations’s International Maritime Organization (IMO) have cut ships’ sulfur pollution by more than 80% and improved air quality worldwide. The reduction has also lessened the effect of sulfate particles in seeding and brightening the distinctive low-lying, reflective clouds that follow in the wake of ships and help cool the planet. The 2020 IMO rule “is a big natural experiment,” says Duncan Watson-Parris, an atmospheric physicist at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography. “We’re changing the clouds.”

By dramatically reducing the number of ship tracks, the planet has warmed up faster, several new studies have found. That trend is magnified in the Atlantic, where maritime traffic is particularly dense. In the shipping corridors, the increased light represents a 50% boost to the warming effect of human carbon emissions. It’s as if the world suddenly lost the cooling effect from a fairly large volcanic eruption each year, says Michael Diamond, an atmospheric scientist at Florida State University.

Smoke particles have the same effect. They are a lot larger than dust particles so they hold more water on each particle and help block some Sun rays. Its not really a matter of the planet is warming faster due to the ocean lane issue, its that it has been warming more than we measured, as our measurements did not allow for global cooling caused by more smoke particles than there are now, and this ocean issue

sen8or

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#3111706 4-Aug-2023 09:15

So certain man made pollutants are good for the climate, as are forest fires / volcanic eruptions?

tdgeek

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#3111714 4-Aug-2023 09:44

sen8or:

So certain man made pollutants are good for the climate, as are forest fires / volcanic eruptions?

Earth needs greenhouse gases, otherwise we could not survive here. Sporadic random events can be absorbed and will stabilise. But piling in fumes for 200 years is another issue

SaltyNZ

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#3111718 4-Aug-2023 10:08

sen8or:

So certain man made pollutants are good for the climate, as are forest fires / volcanic eruptions?

Smoking a cigarette might help keep you warm, but it's also incredibly bad for you.

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Gurezaemon

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#3111745 4-Aug-2023 10:58

We are slowly, inexorably moving towards the unavoidable point where we may need to start looking at active measures to alter the climate as way to compensate for our inability to do something about the amount of carbon we're introducing into the atmosphere.

Arguments along the lines of "we don't know what will happen if we start pumping gas into the atmosphere" are increasingly moot - we've been doing that for over a century, and those chickens have come home to roost.

We need get our smartest and brightest onto this rapidly if we're to avoid even more breakdown of global systems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratospheric_aerosol_injection

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SaltyNZ

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#3111747 4-Aug-2023 11:07

Yeah, except the same people who refuse to inconvenience themselves the tiniest amount to reduce their emissions will also refuse to inconvenience themselves the tiniest amount to make mitigations too.

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MikeAqua

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#3111751 4-Aug-2023 11:17

sen8or:

So certain man made pollutants are good for the climate, as are forest fires / volcanic eruptions?

In one of the Freakonomics books (I can't remember which one), they identified a site from which it would be very easy and cheap to pump sulphur micro-crystals into the atmosphere, to reflect more sunlight and reduce global temperature.

Mike

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