Should New Zealand invest in nuclear power plants?

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#3229071 11-May-2024 16:05

Rikkitic:

Handle9:

One rule for me and another for thee. Good oh.

Sorry, wasn't responding to you.

If you are demanding citations from me it's quite reasonable for you to supply yours when asked by someone else.

Rikkitic

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#3229073 11-May-2024 16:06

Handle9:

You can have your own opinions but you can't have your own facts. If Germany had shut down it's coal electricity stations instead of nuclear stations it wouldn't be in the pickle it's been in the last few years and it's emissions would be significantly reduced.

I am not interested in getting into a tit for tat on this. I have already said I have no expert knowledge of the subject. That doesn't mean I can't read and some of the things I am seeing disagree with at least some of your assertions. Here are a couple of links I have been looking at but I am only providing these to illustrate the point. There will be 10 others that dispute everything presented here and another 10 agreeing. I don't have the energy or interest to pursue this kind of competition. I stated I am not an expert but I am opposed to the idea of introducing nuclear energy technology to New Zealand. That is my opinion. People can make of it what they will.

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/qa-germanys-nuclear-exit-one-year-after

https://us.boell.org/en/2023/04/21/understanding-german-nuclear-exit

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

MikeB4

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#3229075 11-May-2024 16:24

And the thread goes down crapper. I am out

Tinkerisk

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#3229078 11-May-2024 16:46

tweake:

in this context, that's incorrect. we certainly can change what's happened in the past (tho there is practical limits). hence the term retrofit. many countries do this already and have govt programs for this.

2ndly we don't have to keep doing the thing thats not working. there is already more generation in the pipeline. but that doesn't mean we can't reduce the load as well.

I don't want to get any deeper into it, that's up to you (Kiwis). But I agree with you.

Shouldn't you first exhaust all your missed opportunities before you dare to take on a hot, new thing that needs to be carefully weighed up and planned? Nobody is rushing you, and the increasing hunger for energy has reasons of comfort. Hardly any private household here has an energy-hungry air conditioning system, even in summer, nor does it need one, as the houses are built of stone/concrete with 2.5 times the static safety and are thermally insulated. This is just one example.

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#3229079 11-May-2024 16:48

freitasm: Add to this the prospect of new EV charging requirements as households move from ICE to EV transportation.

Mostly EV charging is easy to manage. After hours charging at home can be scheduled off peak for the best rate. The average car commute in NZ and allowing for some after work leisure travel is well under 50km per day. That's mostly less than three hours charging after midnight. Generally speaking that is manageable either with pricing or smart tech.

In the best case with Vehicle to Grid it actually adds some peak capacity and resilience. Vehicle to Grid is a bit of a fantasy at this time but it's not implausible that it could develop with more solar tech install around providing the base connectivity or develop independently.

Sure, we have scenarios like summer weekends away, everyone wanting a charging station after work on the way home. Those could use some thought development. Imo mostly manageable with price signals and increased provision of lightweight charging facilities.

Tinkerisk

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#3229085 11-May-2024 17:10

As of January 2024, we have 49.1 million registered motor vehicles in Germany. Of these, 1 million are EVs. In 11 years, there will be no more (newly registered) combustion and diesel engine vehicles. This means that charging options must be available for a further 48.1 million or more vehicles - despite nuclear power plants being shut down. We wouldn't be Germans if we couldn't think of something to do.

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#3229086 11-May-2024 17:19

freitasm: New data centres are being built all over the country, including Microsoft Azure and AWS regions.

In NZ Amazon Web Services have already contracted windpower generation. AWS already has a policy of buying 100% renewable energy. Microsoft has signed up to new geothermal. With luck and planning it is possible those kind of demands could drive renewables in future.

You're probably aware in the states AWS recently acquired a data centre next to a nuclear plant. Microsoft last year started advertising for nuclear specialists and is clearly planning to install and operate SMR reactors alongside datacenters. Apparently a new SMR design was approved recently.

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Tinkerisk

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#3229090 11-May-2024 17:26

gzt:
freitasm: New data centres are being built all over the country, including Microsoft Azure and AWS regions.

In NZ Amazon Web Services have already contracted windpower generation. AWS already has a policy of buying 100% renewable energy. Microsoft has signed up to new geothermal. With luck and planning it is possible those kind of demands could drive renewables in future.

You're probably aware in the states AWS recently contracted a datacenter next to a nuclear plant. Microsoft last year started advertising for nuclear specialists and is clearly planning to install and operate SMR reactors alongside datacenters. Apparently a new SMR design was approved recently.

SMRs have low load following capability, which clearly qualifies them for data centers, but less so for highly variable loads. The cost of generating electricity is about four times higher than photovoltaics, but the latter are not reliably available.

tweake

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#3229091 11-May-2024 17:27

Tinkerisk:

As of January 2024, we have 49.1 million registered motor vehicles in Germany. Of these, 1 million are EVs. In 11 years, there will be no more (newly registered) combustion and diesel engine vehicles.

govts etc are already starting to backpedal those agreements. don't get to hung up on what might happen in years to come. govts promises mean zero.

also you have to remember that big industry changing from gas to electric will use more power than electric cars. if you want to reduce emissions that's a far better place to start.

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#3229093 11-May-2024 17:28

freitasm: With less snow, our lakes might have less water than needed for full power generation.

I have not really heard of this issue before now. I'm aware snowmelt is critical to generation. I'm not aware what the projections and concerns are.

Tinkerisk

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#3229096 11-May-2024 17:34

tweake:

Tinkerisk:

As of January 2024, we have 49.1 million registered motor vehicles in Germany. Of these, 1 million are EVs. In 11 years, there will be no more (newly registered) combustion and diesel engine vehicles.

govts etc are already starting to backpedal those agreements. don't get to hung up on what might happen in years to come. govts promises mean zero.

also you have to remember that big industry changing from gas to electric will use more power than electric cars. if you want to reduce emissions that's a far better place to start.

What politicians say today is just hot air. Nevertheless, as an engineer you can still hold on to the ambitious goal, even if it seems unattainable today. In any case, that is better than not even starting to think about it. 😉

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#3229103 11-May-2024 17:59

Batman:

if you want to not be dependent on fossil fuels ... be at the mercy of the big oil sending refined oil to the edge of the planet.

looks like NZF is wanting to rebuild our refinery for that reason

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#3229106 11-May-2024 18:15

freitasm: Should New Zealand invest in nuclear power plants?

No. The technology is shifting significantly. We don't want to be the last buyers of old tech. In the short and medium term it makes more sense to continue investment in clean green tech and efficient technologies.

Should New Zealand at least investigate and plan to use nuclear power plants to provide power, replace gas, coal and diesel, and provide a backup for hydro?

I don't think so. Imo the newer SMR and other nuclear technology we might like is not running and is minimum 35 years out from being proven in service and it might still be unsuitable for us and the region by then.

mattwnz

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#3229110 11-May-2024 18:29

In Scotland, they have confirmed that they will not be building any new nuclear power plants and they are going for a non nuclear future. Based on the end of life decommissioning costs and potential risks during their life, I think it is false economy to even seriously consider it, especially when NZ has so many other options for renewable power. NZ struggles with infrastructure and keeping it maintained as it is eg water. I don't think we even have offshore windfarms and certainly we have lots of wind in NZ. There are also a lot of overseas companies wanting to put in solar farms in NZ at the moment and they are relatively eco friendly if done right.

Handle9

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#3229111 11-May-2024 18:36

In most locations in New Zealand there’s too much wind for viable wind farms.

The wind industry in general is a bit of a mess. There’s a lot of money being lost by a lot of manufacturers and a general lack of reliability in service.

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