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networkn
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  #3229384 12-May-2024 19:20
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tweake:

 

retrofit houses/industry.  people/companies plus govt and electric companies pay for it. fairly common overseas to have retrofit programs to upgrade old houses etc. even electric companies subsidize big industry to run more power efficient equipment.

 

our home building standards only increased last year. they have horribly below par for a very very long time. so even a 1 year old home is below spec. plus we don't take things like air tightness into account (or solar gain), so in real practical terms even the new standards where below par when they came out. then add in that other countries are increasing their standards, so even our new standards are out of date before we even build new homes to that standard.

 

the problem is vested companies have been waging the dog to keep them well fed at the expense of people having good homes.

 

 

You either have some very... strange ideas, or less strange ideas and a very strange way of presenting them. 

 

Where is all this magic money coming from to retrofit?  Where are the defined standards by which to complete these retrofits will occur that will increase the longevity and weatherproofness of a home?

 

Which vested companies have been waging the dog to prevent new standards being established and implemented and for what purpose are you claiming this was done? Building companies get paid to build, stricter or higher standards usually cost more, and therefore the higher the profit per building.

 

It's much more likely the costs were higher and the CUSTOMER complained. Standards being raised is usually a consequence of progressive Governments ramming them through regardless of objections, and they aren't usually popular for it, for a long long time down the road. 

 

 

 

 




Handle9
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  #3229390 12-May-2024 19:56
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Rikkitic:

Handle9: 

Siemens Gamesa lost €2 billion last year. Vestas was profitable in Q4 but have signaled they probably won’t stay that way and are not paying a dividend to maintain cash in the bank. Orsted have signalled around 800 redundancies and are exiting a number of product lines. GE Vernova lost $1.4 billion last year. It’s not a healthy industry.




What point are you making here? That wind energy is a losing proposition? Or that we just don't do it very well? 


 



Did you read the post I replied to? It said that the vendors were making money.


tweake
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  #3229392 12-May-2024 20:03
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tdgeek:

 

Jase2985:

 

https://arcline.co.nz/new-nz-insulation-rules-2023/

 

changed insulation standards of both walls and windows

 

The level of insulation in your 2011 house may not meet today's new requirements, even though its "fully Insulated and has double glazing"

 

 

 

you are over simplifying things.

 

 

Perhaps. It depends if our house was over spec then or not. End of the day its modern, warm and dry. The last house was a 1940's villa, we reclad and insulated, also warm and dry and easily heated. (all exterior walls had batts, and all windows new double glazed) 

 

Im not really over simplifying things. If we had a 2000 house will it be terrible and cost a high 5 figure number to bring up to spec?

 

Im in ChCh 

 

 

the idea behind the new insulation specs is to bring the standard up to equivalent of overseas standards for the climate your in.

 

we have had low standards for so long that people actually thought that was good. eg thinking putting insulation into a 1940's home makes it good, when really it goes from terrible to okish. also there is a difference in standards across the country. eg many people in auckland/northland upgrade their insulation to the old south island standard. thats how low the south island standard was, it was a tad above auckland standard despite a massive difference in climate. 

 

cost to upgrade depends a lot on where in the country you are and type of house. in auckland the main difference is window frames. southland is a whole lot different and would be a huge cost and run into practical limits. then there is things like old 1940's windows which can perform better than a 2000's window. its not black and white.

 

however keep in mind, we are already being left behind as other countries improve their standards (and that we are behind due to air sealing and solar gain).

 

 




Rikkitic
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  #3229394 12-May-2024 20:06
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Handle9:

Did you read the post I replied to? It said that the vendors were making money.

 

Yes I read the post. My question stands.

 

 

 

 





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tweake
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  #3229398 12-May-2024 20:18
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networkn:

 

 

 

Which vested companies have been waging the dog to prevent new standards being established and implemented and for what purpose are you claiming this was done? Building companies get paid to build, stricter or higher standards usually cost more, and therefore the higher the profit per building.

 

It's much more likely the costs were higher and the CUSTOMER complained. Standards being raised is usually a consequence of progressive Governments ramming them through regardless of objections, and they aren't usually popular for it, for a long long time down the road. 

 

 

not quite.

 

what happens when building costs go up? people tend to spend the same, but build smaller (which we have seen a lot of as material prices went up). which companies products get used less? so when insulation standards increase, people spend more on other companies products (windows, insulation etc) and less on certain big companies products. those companies loose product sales and hence not very keen on new standards. the standards change who gets the money.

 

if i remember right, most of the submissions where from home owners and most where for the changes. the building industry has always been against changes. thats why we got stuck with non-thermally broken double glazing in the first place and the areas reduced to 3. there is an article on stuff where a builder complains about having to make a ceiling thicker to allow for more insulation. i had the same thing in the 90's where they complained about having to install insulation at all.


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  #3229399 12-May-2024 20:19
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Jase2985:

 

 

 

Most people but the bare minimum insulation and double glazing into their houses. Hence, why the bare minimum standard should be a higher than it has been, and currently is.

 

 

Agree with that


  #3229402 12-May-2024 20:23
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Rikkitic:

 

Handle9:

Did you read the post I replied to? It said that the vendors were making money.

 

Yes I read the post. My question stands.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The point is the wind turbine manufactures are struggling, why? if its such a good technology, why are they having a hard time making money? Market saturation of companies? lots of failures/warranty claimes? or the technology isn't as good as It's purported to be?


 
 
 

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sir1963
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  #3229407 12-May-2024 20:37
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Jase2985:

 

The point is the wind turbine manufactures are struggling, why? if its such a good technology, why are they having a hard time making money? Market saturation of companies? lots of failures/warranty claimes? or the technology isn't as good as It's purported to be?

 

 

Or

 

cheaper products from Asia
Rapidly changing technology/market = lots of R&D
Ukraine war adding a lot to materials costs
Low cost of loans (interest) gone, so higher costs + higher insurance costs etc.

 

Then you have the situation where (like building companies in NZ) had too thin a margin due to competitive quoting markets, so large cost over runs to complete quoted jobs.


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  #3229462 13-May-2024 08:30
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Interesting read: Small reactors don’t add up as a viable energy source (cosmosmagazine.com)

 

 

However, when evaluated on the basis of cost per unit of power capacity, SMRs will actually be more expensive than large reactors. 

 

This ‘diseconomy of scale’ was demonstrated by the now-terminated proposal to build six NuScale Power SMRs (77 megawatts each) in Idaho in the United States. 

 

The final cost estimate of the project per megawatt was around 250 percent more than the initial per megawatt cost for the 2,200 megawatts Vogtle nuclear power plant being built in Georgia, US. 

 

Previous small reactors built in various parts of America also shut down because they were uneconomical.

 

The high cost of constructing SMRs on a per megawatt basis translates into high electricity production costs. 

 

According to the 2023 GenCost report from the Australian Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO) and the Australian Energy Market Operator, the estimated cost of generating each megawatt-hour of electricity from an SMR is around AUD$400 to AUD$600. 

 

In comparison, the cost of each megawatt-hour of electricity from wind and solar photovoltaic plants is around AUD$100, even after accounting for the cost involved in balancing the variability of output from solar and wind plants.

 

 

So, if SMR megawatt costs 250 more than a modern large reactor megawatt, and let's use the average AUD$ 500 per megawatt-hour cost, then they see a large reactor costing around AUD$ 250 per megawatt-hour. 

 

This is still more expensive than AUD$ 100 per megawatt-hour for wind and solar power.





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  #3229464 13-May-2024 08:34
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mattwnz: One factor is also the price to decommission a nuclear reactor at the end of its life. In the UK I read that is about 12 billion NZD per reactor. UK are in the process of decommissioning their current ones. Who would end up paying for that. It does feel a bit like false economy.

 

 

 

I think we all know who ends up paying for that. There's a well established industry model for these sorts of things.





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tehgerbil
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  #3229550 13-May-2024 09:51
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Woah, that was one hell of a read! Really cool to see the thoughts and facts posted here. Appreciate the time many took in their answers as an energy industry layman!


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  #3229608 13-May-2024 10:23
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What's the issue with wind farms? There's an area called Catlins in the south and it's magnitudes more windy than Wellington. I presume many coastal places are just as windy.

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  #3229610 13-May-2024 10:27
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Batman: What's the issue with wind farms?

 

 

 

Apparently lots of people think a coal-fired power plant is prettier than a field of windmills.





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networkn
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  #3229613 13-May-2024 10:38
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Batman: What's the issue with wind farms? There's an area called Catlins in the south and it's magnitudes more windy than Wellington. I presume many coastal places are just as windy.

 

 

 

Too much wind is also a problem :) It's why they don't have wind farms outside parliament.

 

 


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  #3229621 13-May-2024 11:16
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Batman: What's the issue with wind farms? There's an area called Catlins in the south and it's magnitudes more windy than Wellington. I presume many coastal places are just as windy.

 

Yip, and Contact have plans in that part of the world, however I suspect it is very much hanging on what happens with Tiwai, 

 

If someone is about to free up 5000Gwh of generation in the deep south, that will kill any more generation plans until that is reabsorbed by other load (Fonterra electrification + hydrogen??) 

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/news/133257849/contact-energy-to-lodge-1b-southland-wind-farm-consent-application-by-years-end

 

But also....

 

"The wind farm was being opposed by the West Catlins Preservation Society, with spokesperson Dean Rabbidge saying after the council meeting that Slopedown was an outstanding natural landscape that could be seen from Southland and south and west Otago.

 

“It’s going to be destroyed by 55 wind turbines [that are] 220m high.”

 

He said that if it went ahead, it would set a dangerous precedent for Southland."


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