Is NZ's gene pool big enough?

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#898431 19-Sep-2013 13:19

Klipspringer: Where is this so called poverty in NZ?
We don't have poverty here

Not compared to South Africa (I'm ex South African), but it is a real problem here too. Having worked with kids in South Auckland, it is evident enough.
You don't need to be living in a tin shack settlement to be below the poverty line.

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#898434 19-Sep-2013 13:22

Klipspringer: Where is this so called poverty in NZ?
We don't have poverty here

wanna bet.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Klipspringer

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#898441 19-Sep-2013 13:32

paulmilbank:
Klipspringer: Where is this so called poverty in NZ?
We don't have poverty here

Not compared to South Africa (I'm ex South African), but it is a real problem here too. Having worked with kids in South Auckland, it is evident enough.
You don't need to be living in a tin shack settlement to be below the poverty line.

It depends how you define poverty.

If poverty is defined as living below an "average wage". We will always have poverty.
No matter how rich NZ gets. We will always have people living under the "poverty" line. Therefore what are we trying to achieve? No matter what we do, there will always be so called poverty in NZ.

Say for instance we gave each and every person in NZ $1million's each.
We still have poverty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_percentage_of_population_living_in_poverty

According to wikipedia, less than 2% of people in NZ live in "poverty"

In my view poverty should be defined as not having access to certain basic things.

/back to topic

Fred99

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#898505 19-Sep-2013 14:35

Klipspringer:
paulmilbank:
Klipspringer: Where is this so called poverty in NZ?
We don't have poverty here

Not compared to South Africa (I'm ex South African), but it is a real problem here too. Having worked with kids in South Auckland, it is evident enough.
You don't need to be living in a tin shack settlement to be below the poverty line.

It depends how you define poverty.

If poverty is defined as living below an "average wage". We will always have poverty.
No matter how rich NZ gets. We will always have people living under the "poverty" line. Therefore what are we trying to achieve? No matter what we do, there will always be so called poverty in NZ.

Say for instance we gave each and every person in NZ $1million's each.
We still have poverty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_percentage_of_population_living_in_poverty

According to wikipedia, less than 2% of people in NZ live in "poverty"

In my view poverty should be defined as not having access to certain basic things.

/back to topic

Of course it depends on how you define poverty.
But you haven't read that Wikipedia page correctly, as it's fewer than 2% of people in NZ live on less than $US2 per day - not some "poverty line" more likely to be defined by either access to certain basic things, or as some % of median household income etc. NZ doesn't submit that data any more - perhaps it became an embarrassment - and easier to just argue that use of such indices are flawed.
There is absolute poverty in NZ, including relatively high rates of diseases of poverty - you'd need to be blind or to live a very sheltered life not to see it.

Inphinity

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#898513 19-Sep-2013 14:48

Fred99:
Of course it depends on how you define poverty.
But you haven't read that Wikipedia page correctly, as it's fewer than 2% of people in NZ live on less than $US2 per day - not some "poverty line" more likely to be defined by either access to certain basic things, or as some % of median household income etc. NZ doesn't submit that data any more - perhaps it became an embarrassment - and easier to just argue that use of such indices are flawed.
There is absolute poverty in NZ, including relatively high rates of diseases of poverty - you'd need to be blind or to live a very sheltered life not to see it.

I've seen firsthand a number of cases of kids living in what I would call absolute poverty - lacking basics like sufficient food or hygiene. However, in each of the cases I've seen, it has been the caregivers vices and addictions that have been a primary cause (can't feed your kid but can spend $140 a week on booze and smokes, good work). I'd be interested in statistics of the number of adults without a mental or physical disability who are in genuine poverty (and I don't count wasting your money on crap instead of necessities as genuine poverty). I suspect the majority of those suffering in NZ are minors, but have no figures to support that theory on hand.

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#898535 19-Sep-2013 15:20

Inphinity:
Fred99:
Of course it depends on how you define poverty.
But you haven't read that Wikipedia page correctly, as it's fewer than 2% of people in NZ live on less than $US2 per day - not some "poverty line" more likely to be defined by either access to certain basic things, or as some % of median household income etc. NZ doesn't submit that data any more - perhaps it became an embarrassment - and easier to just argue that use of such indices are flawed.
There is absolute poverty in NZ, including relatively high rates of diseases of poverty - you'd need to be blind or to live a very sheltered life not to see it.

I've seen firsthand a number of cases of kids living in what I would call absolute poverty - lacking basics like sufficient food or hygiene. However, in each of the cases I've seen, it has been the caregivers vices and addictions that have been a primary cause (can't feed your kid but can spend $140 a week on booze and smokes, good work). I'd be interested in statistics of the number of adults without a mental or physical disability who are in genuine poverty (and I don't count wasting your money on crap instead of necessities as genuine poverty). I suspect the majority of those suffering in NZ are minors, but have no figures to support that theory on hand.

Sure - I've seen it too. Never to forget that dependents seldom have any influence on behaviour of their "carers".
I wonder if epigenetics might also have a part in explaining multigenerational poverty, and correlations between deprivation and (violent) human behaviour (including child neglect).
In any case, as our pampered, privileged children are going to have to share this country with "them" - it's in everyone's interest that childhood poverty is eliminated.
Community-based care for people with mental and physical disabilities isn't something which NZ excels at either IMO. Most of all - for my niece who has both physical and mental handicaps, while 10 years ago there were various schemes enabling her to gain "meaningful" (but probably not relatively "productive") work, as she just wants to be "normal", funding seems to have dried up. Cheaper to keep her at home doing nothing. Born that way - so no ACC - she lives a very hard life.

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Geekamouse

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#898580 19-Sep-2013 16:11

Economic poverty is relative. It depends on where you live and who you compare yourself with. The real problem in our society, where no-one actually starves, is poverty of the spirit. Can't be bothered, no self-esteem, take the easy way, take no responsibility, dwell on your rights, choose to fry your brain on substances, just don't need to make an effort to get by. It's all 'their' fault. You can't buy your way out of an attitude of mind or an ingrained culture. The poor will always be amongst us.

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#898588 19-Sep-2013 16:14

Fred99:
Sure - I've seen it too. Never to forget that dependents seldom have any influence on behaviour of their "carers".

Community-based care for people with mental and physical disabilities isn't something which NZ excels at either IMO.

Agreed, and these points are precisely why I'm interested in the figures only for adults, without disability (so they are not dependent on carers or other assistance). I fully agree that child poverty & care for the genuinely disabled/ill/injured needs to improve, but at the same time, I think whatever is causing otherwise OK adults to also fall into poverty needs to be addressed, as doing so may prevent future generations falling in to the same trap.

Geekamouse:
Can't be bothered, no self-esteem, take the easy way, take no responsibility, dwell on your rights, choose to fry your brain on substances, just don't need to make an effort to get by. It's all 'their' fault. You can't buy your way out of an attitude of mind or an ingrained culture. The poor will always be amongst us.

Bingo.

MikeB4

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#898594 19-Sep-2013 16:25

it never ceases to amaze me the number of posts made on these forums that are so divorced from reality.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

mattwnz

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#898608 19-Sep-2013 16:40

Geektastic:
nate: Where the hell did this come from?

A shopping trip to Pak n Save in Masterton!

There are a lot of families out that way who have lived in the region for many generations, so are a lot of common surnames. Have you only recently moved into the area or something?

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#898609 19-Sep-2013 16:45

There ain't no lovin' like marrying your cousin.

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#898610 19-Sep-2013 16:50

Inphinity:
Fred99:
Sure - I've seen it too. Never to forget that dependents seldom have any influence on behaviour of their "carers".

Community-based care for people with mental and physical disabilities isn't something which NZ excels at either IMO.

Agreed, and these points are precisely why I'm interested in the figures only for adults, without disability (so they are not dependent on carers or other assistance). I fully agree that child poverty & care for the genuinely disabled/ill/injured needs to improve, but at the same time, I think whatever is causing otherwise OK adults to also fall into poverty needs to be addressed, as doing so may prevent future generations falling in to the same trap.

Geekamouse:
Can't be bothered, no self-esteem, take the easy way, take no responsibility, dwell on your rights, choose to fry your brain on substances, just don't need to make an effort to get by. It's all 'their' fault. You can't buy your way out of an attitude of mind or an ingrained culture. The poor will always be amongst us.

Bingo.

Not sure that I'd agree with that - it's all too easy to generalise to form negative stereotypes.
NZ has become a much more unequal society. There wouldn't be a hell of a lot of dignity in existing on minimum wage in NZ, nor the way things are - for many on minimum wage is there much opportunity to hope for more.
Ask yourself if you'd be happy on $14/hour - not as a "stepping stone" to greater things, but because that was about all you were capable of doing for a job. Fear of even deeper poverty shouldn't be the main motivator to get you out of bed in the morning. It didn't used to be like that. Now our "value" is so easily measured by what we've got and what we earn, we've also got the negative social implication of a meritocratic order - that if you're doing well you deserve it - so if you aren't doing well, then it must be your own fault. Try to keep a positive mental attitude when surrounded by this. Like wasn't meant to be easy, but for many it's a very hard road indeed.

kyhwana2

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#898782 19-Sep-2013 23:12

Klipspringer: Where is this so called poverty in NZ?
We don't have poverty here

You're right! The National government doesn't bother measuring poverty and so on, so obviously it doesn't exist!

MaxLV

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#898798 20-Sep-2013 00:04

KiwiNZ: it never ceases to amaze me the number of posts made on these forums that are so divorced from reality.

Whose reality?

MaxLV

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#898799 20-Sep-2013 00:16

Geekamouse: Economic poverty is relative. It depends on where you live and who you compare yourself with. The real problem in our society, where no-one actually starves, is poverty of the spirit. Can't be bothered, no self-esteem, take the easy way, take no responsibility, dwell on your rights, choose to fry your brain on substances, just don't need to make an effort to get by. It's all 'their' fault. You can't buy your way out of an attitude of mind or an ingrained culture. The poor will always be amongst us.

Dwell on your 'rights'? what is that supposed to mean?

You're not suggesting rights only come to those who can afford them are you? Or those that have a 'suitable' bank balance are deserving of rights.

The poor certainly cant buy their way out of an ingrained culture that thinks they're to blame when the only income they're offered by the society they live in is $13-$14 an hour.

It's telling that so many New Zealanders believe in a black and white, them and us society where the New Zealanders who are worse off than themselves are solely to blame for being that way/in that situation.

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