Why does NZ continue to refuse to let actions have consequences?

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#1265728 23-Mar-2015 13:32

While I agree there should be consequences, I feel that the consequences in this case did not fit the crime.

I rowed at High School, and you spend 4 years slogging your guts out to make it into a crew that can compete for the Maadi Cup. It is a big deal (I think the Maadi regatta is the biggest school sports event in NZ by numbers participating). Maadi winners generally go on to represent NZ at Junior level, next stop after that if you are dedicated (I wasn't :)) is World Championships and Olympic Games.
It also would not have been just these two that missed out. It says in the article they are both members of the Maadi crew, which is the Under 18 Boys 8, so Seven other people would have also had all their preparations dashed (6 other rowers, plus coxswain). You can't just substitute 2 crew members two days before the regatta starts - sure, they will have back-up rowers, but taking away 25% of your top crew will kill any chance you had.

These two did something pretty bloody stupid (you'd have to assume they'd been to an airport before, and could read the signs, so it was stupid, and probably fuelled by excitement and testosterone). They were not charged by the Police (had they been, then maybe the punishment would have fitted), and IMO they should face disciplinary action upon their return to the school, but to remove 4 years of hard work for 9 crew members effectively (and it is bloody hard - when I rowed 20 years ago, it was four 5.30am starts a week, plus afternoon, weekend and lunchtime training) is unfair. If they have made the schools 1st VIII, they are hard workers and have shown dedication - they aren't losers who sit on their chuffs all day making trouble (I was too tired to make trouble). I think their parents did the right thing. Let them row, punish them later (if they win Maadi, the school will conveniently forget about it by the way).

nathan

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#1265747 23-Mar-2015 13:35

has anyone learnt their lesson?

yes, the school don't mess with a lawyered up parent

michael001

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#1265753 23-Mar-2015 13:40

So since the pair have now avoided the schools punishment, cannot the school now expel them as an alternative punishment?

nathan

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#1265754 23-Mar-2015 13:43

the moral of the story is, actions don't have consequences if you can afford good lawyers.

networkn

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#1265755 23-Mar-2015 13:44

trig42: I agree, originally I was pretty horrified that the parents would do this and I still don't agree with them not supporting the school, however it isn't just them that has consequences but indeed the whole team. I believe there could be other consequences that would have been more appropriate that didn't impact quite so much.

I also believe that no-one got actually hurt, there was no intend, it was stupidity for sure, and my kids wouldn't walk straight for a week for doing it, but to deprive someone fruitiion of 4 years work and potentially take away others efforts too, seems overkill.

I do NOT condone what they did, or what the parents did per se.

Publius

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#1265761 23-Mar-2015 13:49

trig42: While I agree there should be consequences, I feel that the consequences in this case did not fit the crime.

And this will be why the high court judge allowed the injunction. It is also what is wrong with NZ.

The airport security should have prosecuted the kids to the full extent of the law. A breach of security is a breach regardless of who's doing it. Why do we have airport security laws if we dont use them?

What is the point of the kids contract with the school saying that they wont bring the schools name into disrepute but for this exact type of event.

We need to stop being soft and caring. The law is the law and people need to expect harsh responses for their actions.

Game theory 101: Team members need to be affected by their fellow team mate's actions or they wont help prevent it happening in the first place. Its harsh but its the only way to affect change, and that is surely the idea of law -- to prevent things.

MikeAqua

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#1265771 23-Mar-2015 13:52

OK so the parents got their court injunction. The conveyor cowboys get to go to Maadi Cup with their team mates.

But surely the coach chooses who rows on the day. Perhaps these two boys can be demoted to the reserves?

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networkn

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#1265774 23-Mar-2015 13:53

Publius:
trig42: While I agree there should be consequences, I feel that the consequences in this case did not fit the crime.

And this will be why the high court judge allowed the injunction. It is also what is wrong with NZ.

The airport security should have prosecuted the kids to the full extent of the law. A breach of security is a breach regardless of who's doing it. Why do we have airport security laws if we dont use them?

What is the point of the kids contract with the school saying that they wont bring the schools name into disrepute but for this exact type of event.

We need to stop being soft and caring. The law is the law and people need to expect harsh responses for their actions.

Game theory 101: Team members need to be affected by their fellow team mate's actions or they wont help prevent it happening in the first place. Its harsh but its the only way to affect change, and that is surely the idea point of law -- to prevent things.

Really? Probably first offence, no intent, nobody physically harmed. The consequences will have well exceeded the harm, and they would have to live with that for the rest of their lives, for a mistake made at 16.

No-one died. A severe reprimand, loss of privileges, some agreed community service and an education program would do far more good than what you are proposing.

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#1265792 23-Mar-2015 13:54

MikeAqua: OK so the parents got their court injunction. The conveyor cowboys get to go to Maadi Cup with their team mates.

But surely the coach chooses who rows on the day. Perhaps these two boys can be demoted to the reserves?

Well if they are the stronger team members, would you punish an entire team for it ?

I think the punishment needs to be strictly limited to those kids who did the stupid thing.

MikeAqua

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#1265798 23-Mar-2015 14:01

Yes I would. They should have 'been a team', at the airport and not let their team mates get on the conveyor.

I am willing to bet at least one of their team mates stood by and watched/encouraged.

networkn:
MikeAqua: OK so the parents got their court injunction. The conveyor cowboys get to go to Maadi Cup with their team mates.

But surely the coach chooses who rows on the day. Perhaps these two boys can be demoted to the reserves?

Well if they are the stronger team members, would you punish an entire team for it ?

I think the punishment needs to be strictly limited to those kids who did the stupid thing.

Mike

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#1265811 23-Mar-2015 14:08

networkn:
Well if they are the stronger team members, would you punish an entire team for it ?

I think the punishment needs to be strictly limited to those kids who did the stupid thing.

Because stuffing things up for the entire team might teach them (and others) a lesson about behaving properly and discourage them and others from doing it again. I'm no saint and did some pretty stupid stuff when I was young and these guys have done the same (well actually I never got warned by the police or AVSEC), but this is pretty bad parenting and teaching a bad example to their kids and other kids at the school that the teachers aren't really in charge and there are no consequences for their actions.

I don't think these kids should be charged by the police but the school cancelling their team at the competition would send a pretty clear message about who calls the shots. I also hope that the parents have learnt a bit of lesson about escalating this, their kids' names are now out there for all to see and it could come back to bite them when applying for jobs later in life.

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#1265812 23-Mar-2015 14:08

MikeAqua: Yes I would. They should have 'been a team', at the airport and not let their team mates get on the conveyor.

I am willing to bet at least one of their team mates stood by and watched/encouraged.

Can I ask if you have kids? I wonder if your kid had worked for 4 years for the chance to do this thing, if someone elses kid behaved badly and meant your kids work had gone down the toilet how you would actually feel.

You can "bet" all you like, but you don't know what you are suggesting occurred for sure, and at the end of the day, kids should be responsible for their own behaviour not that of others unless they assisted.

What happens if most of the kids weren't even nearby at the time? Should they be penalized? I don't think so.

The facts aren't all in evidence here, but in the absence of evidence the benefit of the doubt should be given especially since no-one died, got injured and no damage was done. There are certainly ways to punish these kids that don't impact on others.

I think people are getting a little carried away with the mob mentality.

I can tell you if my kid wasn't involved in any way and as a result of something like this, my kid (yes I have kids) lost the opportunity to compete after 4 years, I'd be very very unhappy.

I personally believe people need to take a deep breath and a step back and look at this for what it actually was.

It might also be worth noting that it would have been VERY expensive to take that to the high court, and regardless of how rich you are, it's still a lot of money.

Again I am not condoning the behaviour, just providing a little balance.

old3eyes

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#1265850 23-Mar-2015 14:25

networkn:
MikeAqua: Yes I would. They should have 'been a team', at the airport and not let their team mates get on the conveyor.

I am willing to bet at least one of their team mates stood by and watched/encouraged.

Can I ask if you have kids? I wonder if your kid had worked for 4 years for the chance to do this thing, if someone elses kid behaved badly and meant your kids work had gone down the toilet how you would actually feel.

You can "bet" all you like, but you don't know what you are suggesting occurred for sure, and at the end of the day, kids should be responsible for their own behaviour not that of others unless they assisted.

What happens if most of the kids weren't even nearby at the time? Should they be penalized? I don't think so.

The facts aren't all in evidence here, but in the absence of evidence the benefit of the doubt should be given especially since no-one died, got injured and no damage was done. There are certainly ways to punish these kids that don't impact on others.

I think people are getting a little carried away with the mob mentality.

I can tell you if my kid wasn't involved in any way and as a result of something like this, my kid (yes I have kids) lost the opportunity to compete after 4 years, I'd be very very unhappy.

I personally believe people need to take a deep breath and a step back and look at this for what it actually was.

It might also be worth noting that it would have been VERY expensive to take that to the high court, and regardless of how rich you are, it's still a lot of money.

Again I am not condoning the behaviour, just providing a little balance.

It does sound like you're condoning their behavior. Sounds like you are on the side of do something and there will be no consequences..

Regards,

Old3eyes

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#1265859 23-Mar-2015 14:28

old3eyes:
networkn:
MikeAqua: Yes I would. They should have 'been a team', at the airport and not let their team mates get on the conveyor.

I am willing to bet at least one of their team mates stood by and watched/encouraged.

Can I ask if you have kids? I wonder if your kid had worked for 4 years for the chance to do this thing, if someone elses kid behaved badly and meant your kids work had gone down the toilet how you would actually feel.

You can "bet" all you like, but you don't know what you are suggesting occurred for sure, and at the end of the day, kids should be responsible for their own behaviour not that of others unless they assisted.

What happens if most of the kids weren't even nearby at the time? Should they be penalized? I don't think so.

The facts aren't all in evidence here, but in the absence of evidence the benefit of the doubt should be given especially since no-one died, got injured and no damage was done. There are certainly ways to punish these kids that don't impact on others.

I think people are getting a little carried away with the mob mentality.

I can tell you if my kid wasn't involved in any way and as a result of something like this, my kid (yes I have kids) lost the opportunity to compete after 4 years, I'd be very very unhappy.

I personally believe people need to take a deep breath and a step back and look at this for what it actually was.

It might also be worth noting that it would have been VERY expensive to take that to the high court, and regardless of how rich you are, it's still a lot of money.

Again I am not condoning the behaviour, just providing a little balance.

It does sound like you're condoning their behavior. Sounds like you are on the side of do something and there will be no consequences..

Does it really? I think you should re-read it. I am saying there SHOULD be consequences, APPROPRIATE to the crime they committed (and taking into account all the factors such as age, intent, circumstance as would any sentencing anywhere in the world) and so that it affects ONLY those actually doing the behaviour and no-one else (Are you ok going to prison if I steal a car while you stand by and watch, or are somewhere in the same building?).

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#1265861 23-Mar-2015 14:31

trig42: While I agree there should be consequences, I feel that the consequences in this case did not fit the crime.

I rowed at High School, and you spend 4 years slogging your guts out to make it into a crew that can compete for the Maadi Cup. It is a big deal (I think the Maadi regatta is the biggest school sports event in NZ by numbers participating). Maadi winners generally go on to represent NZ at Junior level, next stop after that if you are dedicated (I wasn't :)) is World Championships and Olympic Games.
It also would not have been just these two that missed out. It says in the article they are both members of the Maadi crew, which is the Under 18 Boys 8, so Seven other people would have also had all their preparations dashed (6 other rowers, plus coxswain). You can't just substitute 2 crew members two days before the regatta starts - sure, they will have back-up rowers, but taking away 25% of your top crew will kill any chance you had.

These two did something pretty bloody stupid (you'd have to assume they'd been to an airport before, and could read the signs, so it was stupid, and probably fuelled by excitement and testosterone). They were not charged by the Police (had they been, then maybe the punishment would have fitted), and IMO they should face disciplinary action upon their return to the school, but to remove 4 years of hard work for 9 crew members effectively (and it is bloody hard - when I rowed 20 years ago, it was four 5.30am starts a week, plus afternoon, weekend and lunchtime training) is unfair. If they have made the schools 1st VIII, they are hard workers and have shown dedication - they aren't losers who sit on their chuffs all day making trouble (I was too tired to make trouble). I think their parents did the right thing. Let them row, punish them later (if they win Maadi, the school will conveniently forget about it by the way).

I just can't agree with you at all on this. The team had a back-up plan; two additional rowers would have taken their places and the team would have been probably less successful as a result. Something those two kids could think about while they walked back to Christchurch.

The fact that the Maadi Cup is a the result of a lot of hard work and dedication and the fact that these kids and their parents signed a code of conduct (which was monumentally broken) are not mutually exclusive.

They know what they signed. They don't get to row. End of story. If it had been a minor sport, like hockey or soccer or water polo, they wouldn't have been allowed to continue. Why should it be any different for the more elitist sports?

I got so sick of hearing how how much we all should support the rowing and rugby teams, when I was at school (early 1980's). Those same boys that were in the top rowing 8 were often in the first 15 rugby team, too. They were mostly over-privileged and allowed to get away with far too much. Many of them went on to become prefects in their senior years at school.
I'm not sure how many of them have gone on to be anything in their professional lives, beyond normal humans with moderately bad attitudes.

I don't know what school you went to, but most of our rowing eight were not too tired to get up to trouble. My personal experience was that most of the first eight were bullies and boof-heads. Many of them had parents that were ex-rowers, old-boys of the school and heavily involved with the school. They also would have employed lawyers at a moments' notice, I'd imagine...

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