NZ a soft touch

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Uber Geek

#2676712 18-Mar-2021 20:44

Lias:

I get you, but by the same token a saying about all your eggs in one basket comes to mind too. People who lose all their money in a bad investment have chosen to put all their money in that investment for whatever reason.

Yeah I understand that, I guess it's more about the fact bones and emotional scars may heal with time, but if you've been beaten financially it could be worse if you don't have the time.

Nonetheless, perhaps the next person who is jailed for fraud should embezzle it to an account overseas and just say they spent it.

frankv

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#2676715 18-Mar-2021 20:50

Lias:
People who lose all their money in a bad investment have chosen to put all their money in that investment for whatever reason.

Well, yes. But they clearly thought it was a good investment. And, in the case of fraud, have been lied to and misled by a crook. You're blaming the victim.

Beavis

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Master Geek

#2676721 18-Mar-2021 20:54

I know it has all been said before, and that’s because it keeps happening.

I guess I should just sit on the fence and not have an opinion, or go with the popular opinion of the day which would be mindless.

Handle9

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#2676748 18-Mar-2021 21:55

Fred99:

Lias:

Because we've raised a couple of generations of people who have zero idea what personal responsibility is. Everything is always someone else's fault lol.

And yet the country is measurably safer than it was a couple of generations ago.

Don't go coming in here with your facts and actual evidence.

neb

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#2676761 18-Mar-2021 22:30

Fred99:
And yet the country is measurably safer than it was a couple of generations ago.

That's actually a really complex thing to analyse. In the US for example violent crime has been dropping consistently for twenty to thirty years, but then their violent crime rate one of the highest in the OECD (if it wasn't for places like Mexico and Venezuela they'd be at the top) so the figures don't translate well to other countries. In NZ crime, in the sense of people charged and people convicted, has been dropping steadily for the last ten years at least (generally stats are reported over a ten-year period). What makes this constant drop even more impressive is that many things that weren't treated as crimes a couple of generations ago, or at least people knew it was wrong but mostly ignored it, are front-page-news crimes now. Since there's a lot less you can get away with, actual crime figures must have dropped even more than the stats show.

However, that doesn't really relate in any way to whether a woman would feel safe walking (alone?) through the Wellington CBD at night. Overall crime may be at a low, but that doesn't mean one particular location is magically made safe by the overall stats. Having been there on Friday/Saturday nights, that place gets pretty rowdy...

tehgerbil

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#2676810 19-Mar-2021 08:19

It's not just fraud though.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/news/124477137/gasps-in-court-as-drugged-driver-in-fatal-crash-sentenced-to-nine-months-home-detention

His cars wasn't in a driveable condition (speedo didn't work).
He was high/coming down from meth.
He was high/coming down from weed.
He was going 20km+ above speed limit (not that he had any idea).
He went straight through a give-way and caused a man to die a likely excruciating death.

The court has determined the punishment for all of the above is a mere 9month home detention, a few sorries, $5k for the car! And another $5k retribution (@$20pw..).

I'll maintain the easiest way to get away with killing someone in this country is get drunk behind the wheel and smash into someone.

Lias

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#2676865 19-Mar-2021 09:02

tehgerbil:

I'll maintain the easiest way to get away with killing someone in this country is get drunk behind the wheel and smash into someone.

Not wrong.

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floydbloke

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#2677019 19-Mar-2021 09:54

Mental health issues or not, she sounds like a piece of work.

Did Eric Clapton really think she looked wonderful...or was it after the 15th outfit she tried on and he just wanted to get to the party and get a drink?

MikeB4

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#2677024 19-Mar-2021 10:01

Reading her story clearly shows that mental health issues were the root cause of her offending. The health service is a contributing factor with their record of poor prescription medication management.

Fred99

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Uber Geek

#2677108 19-Mar-2021 11:23

MikeB4: Reading her story clearly shows that mental health issues were the root cause of her offending. The health service is a contributing factor with their record of poor prescription medication management.

Not sure what you mean by that Was she addicted to restricted prescription medication that wasn't being adequately monitored, or self-medicating with stuff she'd bought on the black market?

Anyway, a "soft touch" seems to be DHBs. The guy working for ODHB (as it was then) who managed to get away with $17 million. Well he got away with it - only until he didn't.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/112525428/luxury-cars-and-the-missing-millions--trail-into-convicted-fraudsters-assets-goes-cold

One thing that I think may reduce fraud in NZ would be to revise how the "protected disclosure" system works. At the moment if you're making a disclosure based on suspicion of a colleague (or worse - a boss) committing fraud, you're taking on a huge personal risk for your future career. HR departments and senior management don't like to be shown up as fools, good fraudsters are hard to catch, so despite the fact that the present laws are supposed to "protect" the informant, in practice you're putting yourself in peril by doing the right thing.

Edit to add: NZ's record of consistently topping the world rankings for low corruption is based on "perception of corruption". The lower the perception of corruption is, the more sceptical people may be of evidence when it's happening right under their noses.

MikeB4

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#2677114 19-Mar-2021 11:40

Fred99:

MikeB4: Reading her story clearly shows that mental health issues were the root cause of her offending. The health service is a contributing factor with their record of poor prescription medication management.

?

Not sure what you mean by that Was she addicted to restricted prescription medication that wasn't being adequately monitored, or self-medicating with stuff she'd bought on the black market?

Anyway, a "soft touch" seems to be DHBs. The guy working for ODHB (as it was then) who managed to get away with $17 million. Well he got away with it - only until he didn't.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/112525428/luxury-cars-and-the-missing-millions--trail-into-convicted-fraudsters-assets-goes-cold

One thing that I think may reduce fraud in NZ would be to revise how the "protected disclosure" system works. At the moment if you're making a disclosure based on suspicion of a colleague (or worse - a boss) committing fraud, you're taking on a huge personal risk for your future career. HR departments and senior management don't like to be shown up as fools, good fraudsters are hard to catch, so despite the fact that the present laws are supposed to "protect" the informant, in practice you're putting yourself in peril by doing the right thing.

Edit to add: NZ's record of consistently topping the world rankings for low corruption is based on "perception of corruption". The lower the perception of corruption is, the more sceptical people may be of evidence when it's happening right under their noses.

The record in Aotearoa for prescription management is poor. Patients get addicted by the very lose method in which the patient is managed. Many doctors over prescribe then cast adrift leaving them to source their addiction from the underworld. I saw this way too many times with cases I managed when frontline. The cycle, genuine need, over prescribed, gets addicted, doctor cuts off with little management, finds other means of obtaining medication, gets into debt, turns to crime.

Fred99

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Uber Geek

#2677155 19-Mar-2021 12:19

MikeB4:

The record in Aotearoa for prescription management is poor. Patients get addicted by the very lose method in which the patient is managed. Many doctors over prescribe then cast adrift leaving them to source their addiction from the underworld.

In relative terms I doubt NZ manages this significantly worse than comparable countries. (not saying it's not a problem here)

If these figures serve as a proxy - (unintentional) opiate deaths per year per 100,000 population:

NZ ~ 0.8

UK ~ 1.2

Au ~ 4

US ~ 17

tehgerbil

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#2677167 19-Mar-2021 12:48

Fred99:

MikeB4: Reading her story clearly shows that mental health issues were the root cause of her offending. The health service is a contributing factor with their record of poor prescription medication management.

?

Not sure what you mean by that Was she addicted to restricted prescription medication that wasn't being adequately monitored, or self-medicating with stuff she'd bought on the black market?

Anyway, a "soft touch" seems to be DHBs. The guy working for ODHB (as it was then) who managed to get away with $17 million. Well he got away with it - only until he didn't.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/112525428/luxury-cars-and-the-missing-millions--trail-into-convicted-fraudsters-assets-goes-cold

One thing that I think may reduce fraud in NZ would be to revise how the "protected disclosure" system works. At the moment if you're making a disclosure based on suspicion of a colleague (or worse - a boss) committing fraud, you're taking on a huge personal risk for your future career. HR departments and senior management don't like to be shown up as fools, good fraudsters are hard to catch, so despite the fact that the present laws are supposed to "protect" the informant, in practice you're putting yourself in peril by doing the right thing.

Edit to add: NZ's record of consistently topping the world rankings for low corruption is based on "perception of corruption". The lower the perception of corruption is, the more sceptical people may be of evidence when it's happening right under their noses.

100%. Joanne Harrison is a classic case of this - https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/331250/whistleblowers-tell-of-incredible-day-their-jobs-were-axed

Two former transport ministry workers have described how they were forced out of their jobs after raising the alarm about the fraudster Joanne Harrison's behaviour.

The two whistleblowers say they alerted senior managers to fake invoices and dubious travel Harrison was taking but were then targeted in a restructuring she helped lead.

I mean how the bloody hell she was able to lead a restructure which directly saw her firing two people who brought genuine and deeply concerning allegations against her goes to show - you shut up or you are out.

We have corruption in NZ. We just laugh and call it nepotism, or 'blokes will be blokes' as too many deals are done with a can of alcohol in hand well away from any form of scrutiny or record keeping.

frankv

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#2677196 19-Mar-2021 13:14

MikeB4:

The record in Aotearoa for prescription management is poor.

But substantially better than in other countries.We at least have a unique identifier for each person, which makes it easier (and indeed possible) to identify exactly what drugs have been prescribed to an individual. We probably still have a few addicts successfully shopping around GP practices using false names to get multiple opioid prescriptions, but that is increasingly difficult.

Dairyxox

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Uber Geek

#2677207 19-Mar-2021 13:30

I hate these political threads, but let me re-frame the discussion a little:

Why do we punish people for crime at all? Maybe they all just need treatment instead at some level?

Are the current punishments going to discourage others from trying the same thing?

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