how many electric cars needed to offset £8m of gas a day?

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4224 posts

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#2962366 2-Sep-2022 14:49

Geektastic: (my comments marked with >>>>)

… the lack of foresight demonstrated by the Germans.

>>>> First of all, just as there is no such thing as "the British" having a 100% united opinion on Brexit, there is no such thing as "the Germans" having a 100% united opinion.

The fact that much of the EU is also dim enough to become dependent upon an historically bellicose and antagonistic neighbour for energy is another point.

>>>> Stupidity is relative, the colonies of the "British Empire" were probably established through fair negotiations in foreign countries, right? What was dragged away and exploited there, some still dream of the wealth today and that it will be like that again.

Had the Germans kept the nuclear power program going they would certainly be in less of a difficult position and possibly even selling power to their neighbours.

>>>> Possibly. We could only be accused of this if we were whining - but we are not. And we won't continue "as before" either (and others will figure it out one day). This decision is not really discussed here as reversible. Why should you worry your heads about it?

It was foolish in the extreme to assume that the peace post WW2 in Europe was anything but temporary: war and conflict are the normal state of humanity not the exception. Increasing resource pressures will exacerbate the likelihood of conflict in future as well.

>>>> First of all, our hands were tied by the Allies after the war - after all, we lost that one and more than 120,000 troops for LAND DEFENCE were not allowed. We were also no longer allowed to play internationally (and are still not a full member of the UN). Why should we develop military ambitions when the British, Americans, French (and Russians in the then GDR) were in the country as occupying powers and "protected us"? So much for Germany. The military EU is a different issue, everyone has to agree to cobble together a European army - but we haven't got there yet. Trump got the whole thing rolling and that's okay. But Joe is rowing back, which doesn't change the fact that we will inevitably have to think about this (just like the British with their economy, right?).

The EU has forgotten one of the best bits of advice ever given in history, by the Roman general Vegetius: "Si vis pacem, para bellum". With few exceptions, NATO members cut their contributions and were reminded firmly by President Trump of the foolishness of that - although I doubt any of them had the grace to acknowledge he had a point. Perhaps they see the validity of it now....

>>>> Which is it now, Germany or the EU or all of them together? I don't give a damn about this generalised opinion piece in the tabloids. In order to have qualified, respectable opinions, one would have to be able to differentiate. Leaving aside arms imports, how many arms-producing companies does New Zealand have that they could refer to Flavius Vegetius Renatus, or do they trust in the old, familiar ties to the Empire that will never change? Two sentences earlier you accused us of being a historically bellicose and antagonistic neighbour and then our armour is not big enough for you? Pippi Longstocking makes the world as she pleases - but Takkatukkaland was also an island ... in the sea ... without neighbours. We live in a networked world!

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tripper1000

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#2962380 2-Sep-2022 15:25

You don't need to fret about additional environmental consequences from carbon released as a result of this war. This war has reduced world wide carbon emissions due to the reduction in trade and travel and collapsing economies.

What ever direct additional releases there are from this war and sanctions will be more than off-set but the reduction in oil consumption in Turkey, Cuba, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Ukraine and the other collapsing/collapsed economies.

As a bonus there will be large carbon reductions because there are no farmers are planting or harvesting in Ukraine this season, and last seasons grain exports have mostly ceased yielding transport carbon savings (Yay, the world can breath easy as it staves to death!).

The icing on the cake is that the industrial heartland of Ukraine is now dead. 10% of European iron and steel came from Ukraine/Donbas (around 60 million tonnes) but the steel mills have been levelled. At a global average of 1.85 tonnes of C02 per tonne on steel (some of that was pig iron, so slightly less per tonne), that's around 100 million tonnes of C02 saved there.

European air traffic has reduced by 3.3% (4.95 million tonnes of CO2 saved annually) and total global air traffic has been cut by 0.8% (7.3 million tonnes of C02). There has also been big reductions of air travel within Russia (a vast a sprawling country reliant on air travel).

tripper1000

1617 posts

Uber Geek

#2962394 2-Sep-2022 15:44

By the way, the tone of the above post is tongue in cheek. Human misery is to be avoided at all costs.

Tinkerisk

4224 posts

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#2962420 2-Sep-2022 16:24

To get back to the point:

There are approximately 2,120,000 registered cars in New Zealand. Have you ever thought about how and with what energy the EV should all be charged in the future and where should it come from? (Now don't say from nuclear power plants or gas from Russia!)

Ge0rge

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#2962422 2-Sep-2022 16:27

gzt: There is some evidence the result of anti-tank shells and similar munitions using depleted uranium as a hardener are not good to be around in the aftermath. Everyone agrees it's a hazard except the army, any army.

The NZDF 1: recognises the hazard, and doesn't use DU, and
2: keeps a record of those who may have been exposed to DU in the course of their duties.

Dingbatt

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#2962442 2-Sep-2022 17:03

Tinkerisk:

To get back to the point:

There are approximately 2,120,000 registered cars in New Zealand. Have you ever thought about how and with what energy the EV should all be charged in the future and where should it come from? (Now don't say from nuclear power plants or gas from Russia!)

Yes, I think about this quite a bit. At the moment (afaik) NZ’s shortfall in electrical generation is made up by burning imported Indonesian coal. It is inferior to domestic coal and has to be transported quarter of the way round the globe. So even from an energy security perspective (undoubtedly foremost in European’s thoughts at the moment) NZ’s energy shortfall would be better met by using local ‘product’ be that coal, gas or refined oil products until utopian energy supplies can take over.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

alexx

867 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2962451 2-Sep-2022 18:18

Tinkerisk:

To get back to the point:

There are approximately 2,120,000 registered cars in New Zealand. Have you ever thought about how and with what energy the EV should all be charged in the future and where should it come from? (Now don't say from nuclear power plants or gas from Russia!)

Don't we have consented wind farms that haven't been built yet?
https://www.windenergy.org.nz/consented-wind-farms

From my understanding, a major part of the problem is market uncertainty caused by Rio Tinto threatening to stop their smelter operations, which they do on a regular basis. This would result in an excess of generation capacity, which would lead to investment in transmission capacity to bring that cheap electricity north to compete with any new generation projects.

Edit: remove extra word for greater clarify

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Tinkerisk

4224 posts

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#2962459 2-Sep-2022 19:06

Dingbatt:

Yes, I think about this quite a bit. At the moment (afaik) NZ’s shortfall in electrical generation is made up by burning imported Indonesian coal. It is inferior to domestic coal and has to be transported quarter of the way round the globe. So even from an energy security perspective (undoubtedly foremost in European’s thoughts at the moment) NZ’s energy shortfall would be better met by using local ‘product’ be that coal, gas or refined oil products until utopian energy supplies can take over.

And how does that tally with the official exit of NZ from coal by 2030? It seems that you are just as „stupid“ as we are, just with coal instead of phasing out nuclear energy?

Dingbatt

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#2962466 2-Sep-2022 19:50

Tinkerisk:

Dingbatt:

Yes, I think about this quite a bit. At the moment (afaik) NZ’s shortfall in electrical generation is made up by burning imported Indonesian coal. It is inferior to domestic coal and has to be transported quarter of the way round the globe. So even from an energy security perspective (undoubtedly foremost in European’s thoughts at the moment) NZ’s energy shortfall would be better met by using local ‘product’ be that coal, gas or refined oil products until utopian energy supplies can take over.

And how does that tally with the official exit of NZ from coal by 2030? It seems that you are just as „stupid“ as we are, just with coal instead of phasing out nuclear energy?

Yes, I completely agree. But then I’m not the one who makes those decisions. And I only have one vote.

Great to see recognition of the “stupidity” of current energy policies though 😁.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

Geektastic

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#2962502 2-Sep-2022 21:45

Tinkerisk:
Dingbatt:

Yes, I think about this quite a bit. At the moment (afaik) NZ’s shortfall in electrical generation is made up by burning imported Indonesian coal. It is inferior to domestic coal and has to be transported quarter of the way round the globe. So even from an energy security perspective (undoubtedly foremost in European’s thoughts at the moment) NZ’s energy shortfall would be better met by using local ‘product’ be that coal, gas or refined oil products until utopian energy supplies can take over.

And how does that tally with the official exit of NZ from coal by 2030? It seems that you are just as „stupid“ as we are, just with coal instead of phasing out nuclear energy?

Indeed.

Net zero is quite possibly a recipe for economic disaster the way it’s being pursued at present.

I suspect as these various arbitrary virtue signalling dates draw near and cold hard reality comes to bear, there may well be slippage!

gzt

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#2962504 2-Sep-2022 22:02

You have posted your hyperbolic Indonesian coal argument in several different topics at different times and you have received many rational and detailed responses.

Tinkerisk: It seems that you are just as stupid as we [Germany] are, just with coal instead of phasing out nuclear energy?

Tinkerisk, it is not a comparable situation. The quantity is relatively small. Around 10 bulk carrier shiploads per year. There is no dependency on one supplier and there are plenty of alternative suppliers.

Eva888

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#2962551 3-Sep-2022 10:57

tripper1000:
By the way, the tone of the above post is tongue in cheek. Human misery is to be avoided at all costs.

Agreed. Human misery is to be avoided at all costs. I shudder to think what will happen in Europe and U.K. in a few months.

Stop the sanctions which hurt the poorest and the innocent or they will die of cold and starvation while hospitals and Industry shut down.

Putin has read Sun Tzu

'Wait by the river long enough and the body of your enemy will float by you.'

Batman

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#2962559 3-Sep-2022 11:45

Tinkerisk:
Dingbatt:

Yes, I think about this quite a bit. At the moment (afaik) NZ’s shortfall in electrical generation is made up by burning imported Indonesian coal. It is inferior to domestic coal and has to be transported quarter of the way round the globe. So even from an energy security perspective (undoubtedly foremost in European’s thoughts at the moment) NZ’s energy shortfall would be better met by using local ‘product’ be that coal, gas or refined oil products until utopian energy supplies can take over.

And how does that tally with the official exit of NZ from coal by 2030? It seems that you are just as „stupid“ as we are, just with coal instead of phasing out nuclear energy?

They also want to ban lpg last I read

afe66

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#2962715 3-Sep-2022 16:43

Why is the point of this thread other than make a snarky comment about EVs?

Geektastic

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#2962949 4-Sep-2022 09:55

Seems the Germans have seen the error of their ways! This is from a current Spectator article:

“In June Robert Habeck, the co-leader of the Green party and vice-chancellor of Germany, announced that the country would be significantly increasing its use of coal power to counter the effect of the Russian energy lock. So right there is the Green party signing up for fossil fuels. Next is nuclear. The German Greens grew partly out of the country’s 1970s anti-nuclear movement. They cheered Angela Merkel on as she scheduled the shutting down of Germany’s three remaining power plants. For while Frau Merkel saw no danger in relying on Russian gas she did think that nuclear energy was a great risk.

In recent days German officials announced they would be reversing the policy of shutting down nuclear power plants. The Greens seem to be aware that for them this would be the final hurdle. Habeck has ruled out the idea of keeping the nuclear plants. It is not an enviable position that he and his party are in.”

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