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jonathan18
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  #3225806 3-May-2024 09:58
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wellygary:

 

Eventually the T+Cs that apply to the collective from July will be offered to non collective contracts,  (its the law) 

 

 

Interested in a reference to the scope of this law, if it is indeed so generally drawn as you indicate. Every single CEA I've been party to has had conditions that have been unique to that and not offered as part of the standard IEA. As mentioned in my post above, they're not normally substantive benefits.

 

Here's a bit from Employment NZ's website:

 

Employers can’t undermine collective bargaining or collective agreements by automatically passing on the terms and conditions of a collective employment agreement to employees who aren’t covered by it.

 

This doesn’t mean that an employer can’t offer employees the same or really similar terms and conditions as those in the collective agreement. Employers must bargain in good faith with their individual employees. The outcome of the bargaining may be similar or the same, in many respects, to the outcome in collective or other individual bargaining that the employer is involved in. The key factor to look at is whether or not the passing on of the terms has the intent or effect of undermining the bargaining or agreement.

 

It’s a breach of good faith if:

 

  • during collective bargaining, an employer passes on a term or condition reached in bargaining (ie that the parties agree would be a term or condition if the collective agreement is concluded and ratified) with the intent or the effect of undermining the bargaining
  • once a collective agreement has been concluded, an employer passes on a term or condition in the collective agreement with both the intent and the effect of undermining the collective agreement.

https://www.employment.govt.nz/starting-employment/unions-and-bargaining/collective-agreements/passing-on-collective-agreement-terms/




cshwone
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  #3225808 3-May-2024 10:08
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My wife works in the Care sector. The most recent pay rise was backdated for Union members but not backdated for non-Union members. (and I think there was an in-between step for those who had joined the union within the last month or so)


wellygary
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  #3225809 3-May-2024 10:10
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jonathan18:

 

wellygary:

 

Eventually the T+Cs that apply to the collective from July will be offered to non collective contracts,  (its the law) 

 

 

Interested in a reference to the scope of this law, if it is indeed so generally drawn as you indicate. Every single CEA I've been party to has had conditions that have been unique to that and not offered as part of the standard IEA. As mentioned in my post above, they're not normally substantive benefits.

 

 

Yes, as you say they not usually substantive, 

 

Pretty much every place I've worked where there was a union collective, has the same pay scales and leave provisions for both IEA and CEA staff

 

The OP was originally talking about an expected pay increase in the collective,  It would be extremely unusual for this not to be eventually offered to IEC staff. 

 

The  law makes it illegal to offer the same while negotiations are under way, and in a way that undermines the collective, but once a collective is settled  the main components of the CEA are pretty much universally offered to all staff ( if not it would certainly be grounds of discrimination based on union membership status) 

 

 




heavenlywild

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  #3225813 3-May-2024 10:19
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This word "eventually" is the question. How soon would a salary increase in a CEA be eventually applied to those on IEAs? Is there an accepted period of time?


larknz
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  #3225894 3-May-2024 11:00
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A person on an IEA could be paid substantially more than the collective allows. You wouldn't know if this is the case because everything is top secret.

 

The main reason I am a union member is as an insurance policy in case of employment problems. I have seen a number of people get assistance that they would otherwise have to employ a lawyer for.


jonathan18
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  #3225918 3-May-2024 11:11
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heavenlywild:

This word "eventually" is the question. How soon would a salary increase in a CEA be eventually applied to those on IEAs? Is there an accepted period of time?


Have you discussed this with a delegate or your HR department? That way you may be able to find out from them this has already been decided.

 
 
 

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Blurtie
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  #3225921 3-May-2024 11:13
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I experienced this a year or two ago after starting a new job. Similar to @cshwone's comment - for our organisation, I recall pay rises for everyone happened in the same pay run (i.e. say effective after 1 July), but union members had their increase backdated, so got more of a bump if that makes sense... I think union members also managed to get a small bonus as well - wasn't large, but enough to cover the fees for union membership?? But don't quote me on that. 

 

Otherwise, all the other benefits negotiated by the PSA (i.e. increased parental leave, sick leave etc) were adopted by the organisation and applied to everyone. 

 

FWIW - it wasn't enough for me to sign up as a union member. Still not a union member...


jonathan18
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  #3225924 3-May-2024 11:17
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Blurtie: FWIW - it wasn't enough for me to sign up as a union member. Still not a union member...



… and yet many if not most or all of the benefits extended to you on an IEA were negotiated by the union and your organisation’s delegates, paid for by and on behalf of union members.

Yep, that’s fair alright.

heavenlywild

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  #3225925 3-May-2024 11:18
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Blurtie:

 

I experienced this a year or two ago after starting a new job. Similar to @cshwone's comment - for our organisation, I recall pay rises for everyone happened in the same pay run (i.e. say effective after 1 July), but union members had their increase backdated, so got more of a bump if that makes sense... I think union members also managed to get a small bonus as well - wasn't large, but enough to cover the fees for union membership?? But don't quote me on that. 

 

Otherwise, all the other benefits negotiated by the PSA (i.e. increased parental leave, sick leave etc) were adopted by the organisation and applied to everyone. 

 

FWIW - it wasn't enough for me to sign up as a union member. Still not a union member...

 

 

Cool, thanks for sharing that. May I ask if the situation you outlined was in health?


Blurtie
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  #3225938 3-May-2024 11:35
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jonathan18:

… and yet many if not most or all of the benefits extended to you on an IEA were negotiated by the union and your organisation’s delegates, paid for by and on behalf of union members.

Yep, that’s fair alright.

 

 

 

Yep - and I'm happy for my Union colleagues getting backdated pay increases and small bonuses for all their efforts! :) 


Blurtie
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  #3225941 3-May-2024 11:36
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heavenlywild:

 

Cool, thanks for sharing that. May I ask if the situation you outlined was in health?

 

 

No, not health. It was with a CRI.


 
 
 
 

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Kyanar
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  #3225956 3-May-2024 11:54
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My experience back when I worked in health (for a DHB) was that we were employed in IT on an IEA with performance review clauses, and the salary increases I received were substantially greater than the CEA guaranteed ones. Additionally, the PSA was weak and ineffectual and frequently provided no assistance to members who needed it so I never bothered joining. As a consequence my salary increases were neither backdated nor guaranteed.

 

I've moved to Australia now and am still on an IEA, but have the protection of what's called an "award", an industry-wide collective agreement negotiated by the union that sets the minimum terms that can be offered in a contract. Employers can offer more, but not less. As a result I maintain a union membership, plus if the poop hits the fan I've got backup. And lots of discounts.

 

As to the budgeting, they already have a headache there with costs they can't control - did you know every day of annual leave you don't take sits on their books as a financial liability that they have to budget for?


MikeAqua
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  #3226043 3-May-2024 12:54
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Generally speaking, you can sign up to an applicable collective agreement at any time.  In fact, NZ is now an opt-out country.  If you were employed tomorrow, into a role that is under the coverage of a collective agreement, you would legally have to sign onto the collective (without joining the union) for the first x weeks, after which you can opt out. (unless this law has changed since the election).

 

If you are in a senior role, you may be precluded from joining the union.  Generally, unions preclude anyone with the delegated authority to terminate a person's employment, because that is seen as a conflict between duties to the collective and duties as a representative of the employer.

 

 





Mike


jonathan18
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  #3226046 3-May-2024 13:05
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MikeAqua:

 

... If you were employed tomorrow, into a role that is under the coverage of a collective agreement, you would legally have to sign onto the collective (without joining the union) for the first x weeks, after which you can opt out. (unless this law has changed since the election).

 

 

Not quite correct (and it's 30 days):

 

30-day rule for new employees

 

For the first 30 days, new employees must be employed under terms consistent with the collective agreement where there is a collective agreement in place. An employee and employer may agree on additional terms that are more favourable than the terms specified in the collective agreement.

 

After the 30-day period expires, the terms and conditions continue to apply unless the employee has become a member of the union or the employee and employer have chosen to negotiate and agree on different terms and conditions in the individual employment agreement.

 

(https://www.employment.govt.nz/starting-employment/employment-agreements/offering-employment-agreements/)


MikeAqua
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  #3226062 3-May-2024 13:35
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jonathan18:

 

 

 

30-day rule for new employees

 

For the first 30 days, new employees must be employed under terms consistent with the collective agreement where there is a collective agreement in place. An employee and employer may agree on additional terms that are more favourable than the terms specified in the collective agreement.

 

After the 30-day period expires, the terms and conditions continue to apply unless the employee has become a member of the union or the employee and employer have chosen to negotiate and agree on different terms and conditions in the individual employment agreement.

 

(https://www.employment.govt.nz/starting-employment/employment-agreements/offering-employment-agreements/)

 

 

Thanks for the clarification, I had 4 weeks in my head. In practice many employers just put newbies on the collective (simple, and avoids arguments about what is/isn't consistent with the CEA) and at the 30-day mark people can opt to sign an IEA. 

 

I find most people want to sign an opt-out form on their first day.  We can't do that of course.  But after the 4-week mark, almost anyone more than averagely competent signs onto an IEA.





Mike


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