Maths is hard.

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#3307310 9-Nov-2024 18:17

From TFA linked to:

In a statement, Jann Marshall, NZQA deputy chief executive, assessment, defended the exams, saying, “Exam papers are developed and quality assured by writing teams that include experienced subject teachers at that NCEA Level.

I suppose having a dry-run with actual students to get feedback never entered anyone's mind?

That was one thing our (outstanding) physics teacher used to do, when he set an exam he'd actually sit down and try and do it in the assigned time to make sure it was feasible. He didn't have the resources of the NZQA at his disposal but he at least made an attempt to beta-test it.

blackjack17

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#3307326 9-Nov-2024 19:47

neb:

From TFA linked to:

In a statement, Jann Marshall, NZQA deputy chief executive, assessment, defended the exams, saying, “Exam papers are developed and quality assured by writing teams that include experienced subject teachers at that NCEA Level.

I suppose having a dry-run with actual students to get feedback never entered anyone's mind?

That was one thing our (outstanding) physics teacher used to do, when he set an exam he'd actually sit down and try and do it in the assigned time to make sure it was feasible. He didn't have the resources of the NZQA at his disposal but he at least made an attempt to beta-test it.

And how would that possibly be secure?

The exams are written by a lead and 1 or 2 helpers. They are sent to a small number of technical advisors (normally teachers), who attempt the questions and who feed back. If at any stage of the process the exams are compromised (i.e. teachers or students view them or have an idea of the context) the exams are discarded and rewritten.

These are exams that are meant to be completely unknown to all students and teachers (apart from a very small team), but within the exams specs.

There is scope creep at times (i.e. level 2 bio) but of the 100s of exams prepared each year there tends to be very few complaints.

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cddt

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#3307335 9-Nov-2024 20:32

neb:

I don't remember ever getting anything like that, it was all just differentiate this, solve this integral, differentiate something else. The single most useless educational topic I've ever encountered (or possibly the most uselessly-taught topic).

Must have been a good few decades ago. Trying to make maths "relatable" "relevant" "useful" has resulted in the complete dominance of these "real world" problems.

For me it's the single most useful educational topic, as it provides the fundamentals with which we can explain the universe in all its glory... yes, before you ask, I have studied postgraduate mathematics :D

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wellygary

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#3307360 9-Nov-2024 21:53

Year 12 = 6th Form,

DSA/Dr, is a Differential of the Surface area based on the radius....

Its a pretty simple differential and should have really been no trouble for them

.. What would have been the trick was to know that you use a differential to calculate the minima ( and or maxima) of an equation....

mdooher

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#3307439 10-Nov-2024 10:58

I can certainly remember doing problems exactly like this, I couldn't tell you if was 6th or 7th form but we did them

Now teaching students at polytechnic I can say that almost none of them can do this sort of problem when they arrive.

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#3307459 10-Nov-2024 11:46

mdooher:

I can certainly remember doing problems exactly like this, I couldn't tell you if was 6th or 7th form but we did them.

That’s the issue here - that problem was set in a Y12/F6 paper but allegedly the full subject matter that problem covers isn’t taught until the Y13/F7 syllabus.

Sometimes I just sit and think. Other times I just sit.

John19612

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#3307479 10-Nov-2024 12:55

A pretty simple problem if you are doing any initial tertiary level engineering. I would consider the problem beyond the average NCEA level 2 student, probably by quite a bit.

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blackjack17

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#3307553 10-Nov-2024 17:33

John19612:

A pretty simple problem if you are doing any initial tertiary level engineering. I would consider the problem beyond the average NCEA level 2 student, probably by quite a bit.

I guess that is the issue. It is meant to be an excellence question so not doable by an average student. But is it still within scope of what is taught at level 2.

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johno1234

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#3307604 10-Nov-2024 20:37

John19612:

A pretty simple problem if you are doing any initial tertiary level engineering. I would consider the problem beyond the average NCEA level 2 student, probably by quite a bit.

My son is studying maths at university and does a little NCEA tutoring on the side. I showed him this and he said he'd worked through this exact style of optimisation problem to one his students and saw no particular problem with him learning it.

It probably is well beyond the average NCEA L2 student as you point out, but that is OK as it was an excellence question.

neb

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#3307607 10-Nov-2024 20:48

blackjack17: I guess that is the issue. It is meant to be an excellence question so not doable by an average student. But is it still within scope of what is taught at level 2.

It would probably help if they added a note at the start pointing out that it was an unusually hard question and students should only attempt it once they'd completed all the other ones. From the teachers' comments it sounded like they tried it initially, spent a lot of time on it, and were then upset at (a) the lack of success and (b) the time wasted.

cddt

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#3307643 11-Nov-2024 08:07

neb:

... it sounded like they tried it initially, spent a lot of time on it, and were then upset at (a) the lack of success and (b) the time wasted.

That sounds like more of a problem with the students' resilience than the exam question. Building resilience in young people is really important - and it looks like some schools are failing in this.

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johno1234

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#3307646 11-Nov-2024 08:13

Part of the prep that kids should be getting from their teachers is exam and time management and dealing with the easy questions first then hard ones last. In particular they should recognise the "excellence question" which is always the last one of a set on a topic.

Not sure Dioscesan is providing good prep to some of their girls for their $25k annual tuition fee.

Perhaps this is one more symptom of the appallingly low school attendance in NZ post COVID.

blackjack17

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#3307660 11-Nov-2024 09:00

cddt:

neb:

... it sounded like they tried it initially, spent a lot of time on it, and were then upset at (a) the lack of success and (b) the time wasted.

That sounds like more of a problem with the students' resilience than the exam question. Building resilience in young people is really important - and it looks like some schools are failing in this.

Schools or parents?

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John19612

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#3307662 11-Nov-2024 09:33

blackjack17:

Schools or parents?

Both.

This story from a week or so ago sums up some of the dire problems in the education sector quite well (excuse the possible paywall): https://www.thepost.co.nz/nz-news/360467856/number-illiterate-uni-students-crisis-level

Paul1977

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#3307765 11-Nov-2024 15:13

ChatGPT gave the answer for height as 0.01cm shorter than the answer in the Herald.

I suspect this is because when rounding to 2 decimal places (in this case rounding down) would mean the vessel would hold fractionally less than 500ml. I wonder if they were that pedantic when marking?

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