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Handle9
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  #3320259 13-Dec-2024 19:17
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mudguard:

 

Unfortunately this issue won't go away, it will have affected his credit. If you or someone is in a position to clear it then do it. The bottom line is the debt is in your son's name and it doesn't really matter who acknowledges what or arranges anything, it's him that will get penalised/chased for the debt.

 

 

This is the fundamental issue. The account is in his name, it's his debt. Whatever arrangements he made with the third party are not legally Ones problem.

 

Similarly if the third party has authority on the account and changed contact details etc it's still your sons liability. One likely haven't done anything wrong here.

 

It's an awful situation and it's going to cost your son money. He maybe able to pursue the third party for it but it's unfortunately probably not going to end happily for him.

 

 




Handle9
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  #3320262 13-Dec-2024 19:22
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mudguard:
Handsomedan:That's kind of the point I was making - you have to give the person responsible for the debt the evidence and statements for the debt. 

 

The debt can be summarised - doesn't need the other party's details anywhere near it, despite their supposed authority on the account. 
It can be as simple as summarised costs for Phone, Calls, Data, Monthly Plan costs. 

 

Pretty simple. Nothing that would prevent them from providing that info, as evidence of the debt. Otherwise there's no proof the debt even exists. 

 

This is defintely not something OneNZ should wear from a cost perspective, but they should 100% provide all of this infomration to the debt colection agency who can in turn provide that to the debtor. 

 



That's the thing. Now that it's at a third party debt collector, it's past all that.
One/Vodafone will have been doing this for months prior. Now it's no longer worth their costs to do so, so have forwarded it on to a third party. Who will simply have been given an amount to collect and from whom.

I don't mean to sound unsympathetic, but it isn't worth One/Vodafone's time or money to pursue (IE provide statements, proof etc).

If there was a fraudulent element then absolutely pursue, request info or threaten legal action.

 

The debt is with One, the obligation to provide proof is with One. If it's not worth their time to provide evidence of the debt then they can forgive the debt. Their commercial arrangement with an agent is not OPs problem.

 

OP needs to keep saying "I dispute the debt, please provide evidence." At that point the debt collector has to provide the evidence of debt or go away.


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  #3320288 13-Dec-2024 21:35
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If you want to stick it to the girl, your son should demand to know from OneNZ what device was purchased, including the IMEI number, and I'd also demand it be blacklisted as a condition of accepting full responsibility and settling the debt/setting up a payment plan.

 

I understand your son isn't in the financial position to do that, but that's what parents are for right? Just a thought.... It doesn't solve the problem of having to pay the debt, but there would be the satisfaction that the girl is not going to get away with keeping a phone your son is forced to pay for.




Handle9
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  #3320360 14-Dec-2024 04:30
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Wheelbarrow01:

 

If you want to stick it to the girl, your son should demand to know from OneNZ what device was purchased, including the IMEI number, and I'd also demand it be blacklisted as a condition of accepting full responsibility and settling the debt/setting up a payment plan.

 

I understand your son isn't in the financial position to do that, but that's what parents are for right? Just a thought.... It doesn't solve the problem of having to pay the debt, but there would be the satisfaction that the girl is not going to get away with keeping a phone your son is forced to pay for.

 

 

I would also take the step of taking the other person involved to the disputes tribunal. The money involved to file is quite trivial but I'd be demanding the device in question. OPs son is liable for it so they should have possession of it.

 

It's very very difficult to enforce but if the other person is ignorant of that it may help to get the device which could then be sold to settle the debt.


keewee01

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  #3320366 14-Dec-2024 08:20
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Thank you to everyone for the advice. Very useful.

I'll talk to my son and see what he wants to do, and I'll see how the debt collection firm responds.

Again, thank you the information provided and for your insights.

raytaylor
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  #3320379 14-Dec-2024 09:48
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mudguard: I still stress that now it's at collection One/Vodafone have washed their hands of it.

 

The law in this area doesnt quite work that way 
UNLESS the debt collection agency has purchased the debt from vodafone. And thats becoming harder to do these days for consumer debt. 

If vodafone have contracted an external agency to assist in collecting the debt (most likely), then its very much still a vodafone issue. 





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MadEngineer
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  #3320380 14-Dec-2024 09:49
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So your son made a purchase for a girl as the girl had bad credit and couldn’t make the purchase herself.

Presumably there was an agreement between the girl and your son for her to pay this off. She still has the phone, no?

Take her to small claims. This will at least give a court ruling that she must pay your son. I doubt if the court could rule that she must pay the account - making the debt hers.

Unfortunately as your son signed for the debt he will currently have responsibility for that. Otherwise it’s a 10 year wait for the debt to be dropped.




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raytaylor
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  #3320388 14-Dec-2024 10:10
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Summary of problem 
- Son opened an account and listed another person as an authority on the account. 
- Other person went and spent money on the account, then didnt pay it.   

 

Issue 1
- Your son is liable for the debt. Nothing you can do about this. Vodafone did nothing wrong. 

Issue 2
- Vodafone are refusing to provide copies or statements to the account holder (son) 
This is a red flag. He can call up vodafone and get copies just like any other account holder. He can get the customer portal password reset so he can log in and see the details. 
I suppose this may have been prevented due to the initial conversation re. debt and confusion with the vodafone rep.
I would suggest simply calling and requesting the statements rather than initially talking about debt, repayment plans etc.  

Issue 3
- An account being in dispute cannot be passed to a debt collector under NZ privacy law. However in this case there is nothing to dispute. The balance is owed by your son. 
If the authority on the account had changed where statements get sent to, thats not vodafone's fault. As far as they are concerned, they acted on the instructions of the account holder (your son and his delegated authority). 

 

Action 1 
- Son will need to take friend to the disputes tribunal once he has collected the statements and account balance as evidence.
Its cheap and easy - he just needs to know where she lives. 
Its not complicated either. He fills out the form/sues her and then they are summoned to turn up at a date/time. 
Both sit across a table (not court) and represent themselves. An arbitrator listens both sides of the story and then makes a binding judgement.  
Think the tv show Judge Judy but less confrontational and its a small room with chairs and a table instead of a studio that looks like a court. 

 

Action 2 
- Son will need to close the account, have every service terminated on the account.  

Action 3
- Son will need to start making payments against the account. He will unlikely be able to negotiate a payment plan. Its pointless anyway. Vodafone are now in a position where they are thankful for anything they receive. 

Ignore the debt collector- unless they are able to provide account statements and balances. 
If the debt collector tries to add fees, pay vodafone instead. How the debt collector is paid for their time is not your problem they can chase it up with vodafone. 
Dont provide any private information to the debt collector (DOB, Address, contact info etc) 

 

Action 4
- Son checks his credit report. www.clearscore.com its quick, free and easy. You do have to provide sufficient identification. He should start checking this monthly. 
The website is funded from lenders who will present you finance options based on your credit report. Its simply a good free way to keep an eye on your credit report. 

 

 

 

Vodafone=One





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networkn
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  #3320526 14-Dec-2024 16:33
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raytaylor:

 


- Son will need to take friend to the disputes tribunal once he has collected the statements and account balance as evidence.
Its cheap and easy - he just needs to know where she lives. 
Its not complicated either. He fills out the form/sues her and then they are summoned to turn up at a date/time. 
Both sit across a table (not court) and represent themselves. An arbitrator listens both sides of the story and then makes a binding judgement.  
Think the tv show Judge Judy but less confrontational and its a small room with chairs and a table instead of a studio that looks like a court. 

 

 

Absolutely no point in this. She will not attend, judgement will be awarded in his favour, he has to chase the debt, he will never get the money if she doesn't want to pay. 


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  #3320577 14-Dec-2024 17:17
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networkn: Absolutely no point in this. She will not attend, judgement will be awarded in his favour, he has to chase the debt, he will never get the money if she doesn't want to pay. 

 

I think the point is more to get an official court document saying it's her debt rather than any hope of recovering the funds.


  #3320579 14-Dec-2024 17:23
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It won't help much.

 

 

 

Assuming all the contracts etc. are properly written and presented, the tribunal will say Alice and Bob jointly & severably owe Vodafone, and Alice owes Bob. 

 

Bob has 'guaranteed' to VF that he'll pay if Alice doesn't. That's why VF were willing to issue the contract (effectively a loan) if Bob signed on it, but not if Alice alone signed.

 

 

 

Having a judgement that say Alice does owe the money will not force VF to stop chasing Bob, unless you can show the tribunal that VF screwed up somehow and failed to keep a copy of the contract, notify Bob the account was in arrears if they were required to etc.


Handle9
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  #3320581 14-Dec-2024 17:31
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SomeoneSomewhere:

It won't help much.


 


Assuming all the contracts etc. are properly written and presented, the tribunal will say Alice and Bob jointly & severably owe Vodafone, and Alice owes Bob. 


Bob has 'guaranteed' to VF that he'll pay if Alice doesn't. That's why VF were willing to issue the contract (effectively a loan) if Bob signed on it, but not if Alice alone signed.


 


Having a judgement that say Alice does owe the money will not force VF to stop chasing Bob, unless you can show the tribunal that VF screwed up somehow and failed to keep a copy of the contract, notify Bob the account was in arrears if they were required to etc.



In the circumstances described by OP Alice has no liability to One. Bob is the account holder, Alice merely has an authority to operate the account. She has no liability to One.

Alice has a seperate verbal agreement with Bob. Her liability is to Bob which Bob has to recover independently of meeting their obligations to One.

  #3320585 14-Dec-2024 17:43
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It sounds like Alice may have accepted that she does have a debt to VF and now is also responsible for it. My understanding is that by accepting it's your debt and making payments on it, you forfeit some of your rights to say 'nuh uh not me' later on. 

 

The friend finally admits to (I think Vodafone) that the debt is hers and she makes payment plan with Vodafone, by this point One NZ. The friend stops paying after just one payment, as we understand it.

 

 

 

Either way, going to court or disputes tribunal is unlikely to result in VF being told they cannot also go after Bob (unless they screwed up the paperwork). Hence, jointly and severably liable.

 

Messy situation. 

 

 

 

 


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  #3320592 14-Dec-2024 18:11
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SomeoneSomewhere:

 

It sounds like Alice may have accepted that she does have a debt to VF and now is also responsible for it. My understanding is that by accepting it's your debt and making payments on it, you forfeit some of your rights to say 'nuh uh not me' later on. 

 

The friend finally admits to (I think Vodafone) that the debt is hers and she makes payment plan with Vodafone, by this point One NZ. The friend stops paying after just one payment, as we understand it.

 

 

 

Either way, going to court or disputes tribunal is unlikely to result in VF being told they cannot also go after Bob (unless they screwed up the paperwork). Hence, jointly and severably liable.

 

Messy situation. 

 

 

When in doubt, the contract terms win, esp when there is no breach of the fair trading act, which in this case there isn't. 

 

The correct who owes who was described above, and discussions to the contrary are unhelpful. 

 

Discussions beyond what has already been discussed, without an update from the OP are fruitless. 


Handle9
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  #3320594 14-Dec-2024 18:18
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It’s not unhelpful to properly describe who has liability for what and to whom. It’s at the heart of the topic. Joint and several liability allows One to pursue either party or both for the debt. It doesn’t remove any liability for OPs son.

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