Advice over Vodafone debt incurred by 3rd party and twice referred for collection

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keewee01

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#318076 12-Dec-2024 23:41

I'll keep this brief - my son was persuaded by a friend to sign onto what was then Vodafone New Zealand (now One NZ, but as this mostly happened before the rebrand I will refer to them as Vodafone) with a plan and a phone, which were for her (the friend) and she was given authority on the account. She talked my son into doing this because she already had shit credit. My son has learnt a massive, massive lesson here and he is very aware that he's seriously screwed up and he'll never help someone out again. So please don't bother jumping all over him - he has huge mental anxieties and this has already seriously knocked him around mentally. He's been failed by our mental health system on top of everything else.

Fast forward to around a year later (I'm not sure exactly how much later it was) and my son was being chased by a debt collection firm on behalf of Vodafone - the friend had paid for a couple of months and then nothing further. Son told the collection firm the debt is in dispute and he then gets ghosted by the "friend" when he tries to find out what is going on.

The friend finally admits to (I think Vodafone) that the debt is hers and she makes payment plan with Vodafone, by this point One NZ. The friend stops paying after just one payment, as we understand it.

One NZ refers debt to a different! collection agency a few months ago who are now chasing my son. He has told them that it is in dispute, but this time the "friend" is having nothing to do with it or admitting to anything. And this firm has told him (tricked him?) into agreeing to a payment plan - even though they were told this is in dispute.

Some important facts
- my son never once received a single statement from Vodafone, or demands for payment;
- Vodafone refuse to provide invoices/statements to my son, even on requesting, citing pivacy;
- the first collection agency would not (could not?) provide and significant details to my son, no invoices /statements, what was actually paid, nothing;
- the second collection agency cannot provide any significant detail to my son, they claim they've not been given this by One NZ, and there was a mention of privacy also;

I've laid out these facts to the second collection agency and asked them to confirm what they know and what their actions have been, and I've demanded that they hand over copies of all electronic and physical documents with in 7 days.

At this point I'm pretty sure that One NZ and both collection agencies have well and truly overstepped a variety of regulations and laws and that I should be asking the New Zealand Police and the Insurance and Financial Services Ombudsman to be looking into all of this for a number of reasons! I want to try and get it resolved as quickly as I can as this is again starting to affect his mental health and I don't want him to get to the point where he's suicidal again.

Based on the above, am I barking up the wrong tree and he just needs to pay the debt? (he recently l Iost his job standing up for colleagues, but it made all that companies Team Lead looks bad and so as a contractor he was cut, so payment is going to be slow). Or do the police need to be involved for the coercion of my son by his "friend".

After some sound advice on what we can and should do, and where and to whom do we go please. Thanks.

Oh... And sorry I lied about keeping it brief, I did try.

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Chorus

#3319826 13-Dec-2024 02:07

Sounds like a bit of a nightmare. It seems OneNZ and the debt collectors are hiding behind "privacy" as it suits them, but maybe there is good reason for it - hard to say.

I'm not sure if he still actively monitors Geekzone, but maybe @JasonParis could point you in the right direction.

I suspect the police won't be much help - they will just say it's a civil matter because the friend hasn't actually stolen from or defrauded your son per se, but she has been a truly lousy friend and he's better being rid of her for sure.

The friend finally admits to (I think Vodafone) that the debt is hers and she makes payment plan with Vodafone, by this point One NZ. The friend stops paying after just one payment, as we understand it.

If the above is correct, I would have thought that any and all collection action for your son should have ceased, and it's up to OneNZ to instruct both debt collectors that the debt has been transferred to the girl and she is the one who should be chased. But that is on the proviso that in taking responsibility for the debt, the friend set up her own billing account with OneNZ. But she may not have done that - she may simply have promised to make installment payments to your son's account, which still essentially leaves him on the hook for it.

Hopefully Jason or someone else from OneNZ sees this and can offer some more insights. Good luck!

The views expressed by me are not necessarily those of my employer Chorus NZ Ltd

mudguard

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#3319843 13-Dec-2024 08:55

My vague memory is once it's at third party debt collection the previous company are done with it? I think that is how we treated it once we outsourced the collection.

Unfortunately this issue won't go away, it will have affected his credit. If you or someone is in a position to clear it then do it. The bottom line is the debt is in your son's name and it doesn't really matter who acknowledges what or arranges anything, it's him that will get penalised/chased for the debt.

You can ask for whatever documents you like, the debt collection agency will have only generic information I suspect. And the issue with the original Vodafone debt is that potentially the friend has been set up as an authority, and presumably as that authority, may have said that your son no longer has authority. So he can't change the mailing address, request statements etc.

I know none of this helps and as you say he's learned a lesson. But if it were me, I'd pay it and be done with it. There a privacy concerns usually for very good reasons. And in this circumstance it sucks for your son but there's money owed and it will only get worse.

NB, Privacy Reason One number. When I worked at a finance company a colleague inadvertently gave out an account holder's address (male partner called, said, need to update address, what do you have on the system, oh are you sure, should be this etc), turns out it was an ex partner, with a restraining order, and went round and beat her within an inch of her life.

Rickles

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#3319853 13-Dec-2024 09:55

Thought: If account still in son's name, then he should ensure it is cancelled and made dead! Get confirmation.

Then put to OneNZ the chronological facts, and ask for time to settle the matter personally. Get confirmation.

Confirm to debt collector what you are doing. Get confirmation .... they cannot move if you say you are taking steps to remedy.

Unfortunately, this is not an uncommon problem, and we see such playing out in Court all the time. Also, seek advice from Citizens Advice Bureau who have lawyers available for free consults.

networkn

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#3319854 13-Dec-2024 09:55

I think it's pretty wrong they expect you to be responsible for the debt but refuse to prove what you owe. You can't have the cake and eat it too.

It's a bit of a tricky one as to whom they should be chasing for the debt, the contract appears on face value to be between your son and One NZ. One NZ switching the payment plan to the friend was likely not a formal transfer of debt.

May I ask how much money is involved?

I think someone suitably senior at One NZ should be able to sort this out as the post above mine outlines, that is pretty much the correct action. Make a plan, document it, and stick to it. Hopefully, One NZ may accept the extenuating circumstances and waive the collection and interest fees.

I don't think it's worth the effort to chase the friend at this stage, anything agreed would unlikely to be completed by her.

Handsomedan

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#3319860 13-Dec-2024 10:20

Like @Networkn, I think the real issue here is the fact that they are pursuing your son for the debt, but are citing privacy for the withholding of debt information.

You can't go after a natural person and not allow them the legal courtesy of having the evidence to either dispute or reconcile the debt.

I'd be speaking to CAB and asking for legal help to get this part of it sorted - the dispute with the former friend will be a separate issue that may or may not be able to be resolved outside of the debt issue.

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mudguard

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#3319862 13-Dec-2024 10:26

I still stress that now it's at collection One/Vodafone have washed their hands of it.

They will have spent months spending statements, calling to collect with their own internal team, and obviously now have sourced it to a third party.

Bear in mind, the friend has authority, and quite possibly has stated that she could be in an abusive relationship and not allow the original account holder to make changes or be given information.

I'm terms of dollar value it could be what, a phone and a couple years of monthly account non payment?

So it could be a substantial sum. A couple thousand.

I agree, it's an awful situation, but what is the best case scenario for the OP? Somehow One moves the debt to the friend? Or they wipe the debt?

networkn

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#3319866 13-Dec-2024 10:40

mudguard: I still stress that now it's at collection One/Vodafone have washed their hands of it.

I agree, it's an awful situation, but what is the best case scenario for the OP? Somehow One moves the debt to the friend? Or they wipe the debt?

Whilst I fully sympathsize with the OP's Son, I feel asking OneNZ to forgive the debt isn't a reasonable thing. One NZ has done little or nothing wrong. The transaction was legal, they have met their end of the contract.

What IS reasonable in my view, is that someone suitably senior at One NZ come up with a manageable plan that the OP's son must stick to, to meet the the debt, and potentially as a matter of good will, removes any penalties which don't directly reflect their costs.

Regardless of anything else, you can't be responsible for a Debt you have no visibility of, the privacy thing is unlikely to be a reason for them not to furnish at least a summary of what is owed and how it was acrued. Obviously not detailed as in call history etc.

It's a lousy situation to be in, but I don't feel the 'big corporation' should need to foot the bill for this one. People make mistakes end up responsible for the consequences of it all the time. Fixing it should be handled in a manageable way by all parties concerned if recovery is to be acheived.

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MichaelNZ

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#3319868 13-Dec-2024 10:48

Keep the evidence they are hiding behind "privacy" at the same time as trying to collect as this could be prejudicial to them.

2. See a lawyer.

Jason Paris is also a prolific poster on Linked In if you can't reach him here.

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richms

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#3319869 13-Dec-2024 10:50

If they refuse to provide any evidence of the debt in the form of statements, collection letters etc then how can they claim it is a valid debt?

Richard rich.ms

Handsomedan

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#3319876 13-Dec-2024 11:12

richms:

If they refuse to provide any evidence of the debt in the form of statements, collection letters etc then how can they claim it is a valid debt?

That's kind of the point I was making - you have to give the person responsible for the debt the evidence and statements for the debt.

The debt can be summarised - doesn't need the other party's details anywhere near it, despite their supposed authority on the account.
It can be as simple as summarised costs for Phone, Calls, Data, Monthly Plan costs.

Pretty simple. Nothing that would prevent them from providing that info, as evidence of the debt. Otherwise there's no proof the debt even exists.

This is defintely not something OneNZ should wear from a cost perspective, but they should 100% provide all of this infomration to the debt colection agency who can in turn provide that to the debtor.

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Bung

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#3319880 13-Dec-2024 11:23

mudguard: I'm terms of dollar value it could be what, a phone and a couple years of monthly account non payment?

Letting a hire purchase linked phone account go more than a couple of months overdue would be very poor debt control. This looks like a case where cancelling the phone's ESN would be justified.

loceff13

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#3319885 13-Dec-2024 11:39

Oddly enough the ComCom advice is the Disputes Tribunal can deal with this too

https://comcom.govt.nz/consumers/dealing-with-typical-situations/debt-collection

If the debt collector still says you have to pay, you can ask the Disputes Tribunal or the court to decide whether you should pay. This is a good option if you are sure that the debt is not yours or the amount is wrong, and you want the debt collector to stop contacting you to ask you to pay.

That being said I'm not sure how he would prove its her debt and that she had acknowledged ownership of it and had debt arrangements with Voda/other collections unless he has documents proving that. Getting One to turn them over would be near impossible unless it actually went to court and the costs for that > the debt cost.

networkn

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#3319893 13-Dec-2024 12:23

loceff13:

Oddly enough the ComCom advice is the Disputes Tribunal can deal with this too

https://comcom.govt.nz/consumers/dealing-with-typical-situations/debt-collection

If the debt collector still says you have to pay, you can ask the Disputes Tribunal or the court to decide whether you should pay. This is a good option if you are sure that the debt is not yours or the amount is wrong, and you want the debt collector to stop contacting you to ask you to pay.
That being said I'm not sure how he would prove its her debt and that she had acknowledged ownership of it and had debt arrangements with Voda/other collections unless he has documents proving that. Getting One to turn them over would be near impossible unless it actually went to court and the costs for that > the debt cost.

I'd imagine the Disputes Tribunal would have no choice but to look at who holds the contract.

Without strong evidence to prove the debt isn't his, and a reasonable way for them to uphold the debt being moved to her, it's a waste of time.

mudguard

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#3319895 13-Dec-2024 12:25

Handsomedan:
richms:

If they refuse to provide any evidence of the debt in the form of statements, collection letters etc then how can they claim it is a valid debt?

That's kind of the point I was making - you have to give the person responsible for the debt the evidence and statements for the debt.

The debt can be summarised - doesn't need the other party's details anywhere near it, despite their supposed authority on the account.
It can be as simple as summarised costs for Phone, Calls, Data, Monthly Plan costs.

Pretty simple. Nothing that would prevent them from providing that info, as evidence of the debt. Otherwise there's no proof the debt even exists.

This is defintely not something OneNZ should wear from a cost perspective, but they should 100% provide all of this infomration to the debt colection agency who can in turn provide that to the debtor.

That's the thing. Now that it's at a third party debt collector, it's past all that.
One/Vodafone will have been doing this for months prior. Now it's no longer worth their costs to do so, so have forwarded it on to a third party. Who will simply have been given an amount to collect and from whom.

I don't mean to sound unsympathetic, but it isn't worth One/Vodafone's time or money to pursue (IE provide statements, proof etc).

If there was a fraudulent element then absolutely pursue, request info or threaten legal action.

SomeoneSomewhere

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#3320245 13-Dec-2024 18:23

The point is that the third party debt collector also needs to prove that the debt is valid, and it's very very hard for them to do that without contracts and/or statements saying what is owed and that it's overdue.

However, if the original contract shows up, I suspect he's kind of screwed. Just because the friend paid some does not mean he's not liable. It seems like a 'guarantor' type situation.

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