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neb

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  #3340255 7-Feb-2025 19:15
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Tinkerisk: However, the fact that readers can read existing data such as card number and expiry date has been shown by the (state-run) Bundpol test and development laboratory in various tests that it is indeed possible.

 

It's really not hard to do, it's a popular party trick among hackers.  Also the distance isn't set, the usual quoted 10-15cm or whatever ("a few inches") is just what any worst-case cheap-junk reader should be able to manage.  Just as with Bluetooth where you can connect over distances of a mile or more (you can see that experiment was done in the US), with NFC you can also get much longer ranges with bigger antennas, better electronics, and more power.  The biggest problem over longer distances is ground clutter, which is why one security researcher proposed using the Aricebo telescope (before it collapsed) to try and read a tag in low earth orbit.




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  #3340257 7-Feb-2025 19:21
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neb:

 

Tinkerisk: Just put a second card with NFC215 (something cheap or blank is sufficient) to or near the first one. If two or more cards receive energy at the same time, they all respond at the same time, which leads to confusion at the NFC reader. 

 

No they don't, that's what anticollision is for.  In theory a reader should be able to talk to each card in turn.  The fact that there are some readers which are badly programmed and can't get it right is a bug, not by design.

 

 

I meant this in addition to the shielding film, which I assume is a basic requirement. The question was whether this is sufficient (according to my experiments, it is. But I did only use an iPhone as a NFC reader/programmer, not specialized equipment).

 

Not all cards have anti-collision and some of the energy is also absorbed by the (second) dummy card. There are also different frequency ranges, which are not all covered at the same time. So, all together not either or.

 

 





     

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  #3340260 7-Feb-2025 19:37
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neb:

 

Also the distance isn't set, the usual quoted 10-15cm or whatever ("a few inches") is just what any worst-case cheap-junk reader should be able to manage.  Just as with Bluetooth where you can connect over distances of a mile or more (you can see that experiment was done in the US), with NFC you can also get much longer ranges with bigger antennas, better electronics, and more power.  The biggest problem over longer distances is ground clutter, which is why one security researcher proposed using the Aricebo telescope (before it collapsed) to try and read a tag in low earth orbit.

 

 

I can just imagine scammers following you around a shopping centre with a radio telescope. 😉





     

  • Qui nihil scit, omnia credere debet. - He who knows nothing must believe everything.
  • Firewalls do NOT stop dragons!
  • I avoid Big Tech, they try hard to dictate technology and culture across borders.
  • In effect we have everything to hide from someone, and no idea who someone is.



neb

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  #3340263 7-Feb-2025 19:42
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Yeah, that's the thing, when you can buy people's credit card info in thousand-card lots with free trials and a money-back guarantee and the rate-limiting factor is how fast you can cash them out, there's not much incentive to skim a single card.  So it'd be more a targeted attack on an access control card or similar.

 

For people wanting to see this, google "cvv dumps fullz".  The latest trend has been to use web page injection so you'll get hits in very unexpected places.


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  #3340901 10-Feb-2025 08:53
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Tinkerisk:

 

MurrayM:

 

Does it fully protect my card? I dunno. But I do know that an NFC reader app on my phone can read my card when it's out of the foil holder but not when it's in the holder, so it does seem to block it from being read. Maybe if the power was cranked up on the reader then it could read it through the foil.

 

 

Just put a second card with NFC215 (something cheap or blank is sufficient) to or near the first one. If two or more cards receive energy at the same time, they all respond at the same time, which leads to confusion at the NFC reader.

 

 

I only have one card that has a RFID chip in it. I try to carry as few cards as possible.


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  #3340903 10-Feb-2025 09:06
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MurrayM:

 

I only have one card that has a RFID chip in it.

 

 

If you are worried enough, go buy yourself a bus card , dollars for donuts its RFID too!


 
 
 

Move to New Zealand's best fibre broadband service (affiliate link). Free setup code: R587125ERQ6VE. Note that to use Quic Broadband you must be comfortable with configuring your own router.
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  #3340905 10-Feb-2025 09:09
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wellygary:

 

MurrayM:

 

I only have one card that has a RFID chip in it.

 

 

If you are worried enough, go buy yourself a bus card , dollars for donuts its RFID too!

 

 

Yeah I'm not really all that worried, I think the foil sleeve should be enough protection. I recently got rid of my old bus card now that we can use credit cards on the busses in Auckland.


neb

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  #3341099 10-Feb-2025 14:36
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Tinkerisk: I can just imagine scammers following you around a shopping centre with a radio telescope. 😉

 

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

 

Seriously though, the risk is essentially zero since it's so easy to get bulk lots of card data from other sources.


neb

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  #3341100 10-Feb-2025 14:38
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MurrayM: Yeah I'm not really all that worried, I think the foil sleeve should be enough protection. I recently got rid of my old bus card now that we can use credit cards on the busses in Auckland.

 

Speaking of which, anyone know how they negotiated clearing vast numbers of microtransactions without paying 200% of the value in processing fees?


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  #3341194 10-Feb-2025 17:11
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MurrayM:

 

I only have one card that has a RFID chip in it. I try to carry as few cards as possible.

 

 

Me too. But we have at least one electronic ID card, an electronic health insurance card (recently with a central electronic patient file), at least one bank card with an electronic payment function, electronic public transportation tickets, a driving licence with an NFC chip for car hire systems, a credit card, ... and everything else that comes along.

 

The electronic ID card is also the MFA key for electronic, secure communication with authorities, applications, tax returns, etc. and is therefore worth protecting as much as possible.

 

 

 

 





     

  • Qui nihil scit, omnia credere debet. - He who knows nothing must believe everything.
  • Firewalls do NOT stop dragons!
  • I avoid Big Tech, they try hard to dictate technology and culture across borders.
  • In effect we have everything to hide from someone, and no idea who someone is.

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