ZOMG we need those anti-terror surveillance laws right now!

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#1199199 17-Dec-2014 14:45

ajobbins:
Rikkitic: We can talk an awful lot about a lot of things but what surveillance comes down to in the end is trust. John key says trust us. We know things you don’t and we act in your best interests. The problem is, I don’t trust him, not for that. I don’t trust anyone who says they know best and I should just trust them unless I have slept with them. I don’t trust intelligence agencies of any kind anywhere because they operate in secret with elevated powers but no proper accountability. I don’t trust government organisations because the ones we do know about make lots of dumb mistakes, sometimes break laws and try to cover it up, let themselves be guided by the personal prejudices and incompetence of people in charge, and often just don’t do a very good job anyway. Why should we be expected to believe that the secret organisations are any different? Anyone who wants my trust has to earn it, and so far these puppies haven’t.

And even if you did trust John Key, or he was genuinely trustworthy....who's to say the next government, who inherit these powers are just as trustworthy or equally responsible.

At some point you need to trust, if not have an Absolute Monarchy and you have no choice.

ajobbins

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#1199202 17-Dec-2014 14:48

KiwiNZ: At some point you need to trust, if not have an Absolute Monarchy and you have no choice.

Politicians are by nature untrustworthy. That is why we have appropriate constraints on their power, and checks and balances in place to ensure they don't or can't abuse it.

That the problem with this kind of legislation. It's a power shift away from citizens and away from those check and balances to ensure the government of the day can't abuse the power they have.

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MikeB4

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#1199206 17-Dec-2014 14:51

ajobbins:
KiwiNZ: At some point you need to trust, if not have an Absolute Monarchy and you have no choice.

Politicians are by nature untrustworthy. That is why we have appropriate constraints on their power, and checks and balances in place to ensure they don't or can't abuse it.

That the problem with this kind of legislation. It's a power shift away from citizens and away from those check and balances to ensure the government of the day can't abuse the power they have.

Politicians are citizens, therefore you are saying you can trust no one.

This is not a South American or African pseudo democracy, all this cannot trust... or they will abuse powers and goodness know what else is just crazy.

I have dealt with a number of politicians from across the parties and I have found them to be straight up hardworking with the good of the nation at heart. I don't buy into the crazy.

heylinb4nz

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#1199221 17-Dec-2014 15:10

KiwiNZ:
ajobbins:
KiwiNZ: At some point you need to trust, if not have an Absolute Monarchy and you have no choice.

Politicians are by nature untrustworthy. That is why we have appropriate constraints on their power, and checks and balances in place to ensure they don't or can't abuse it.

That the problem with this kind of legislation. It's a power shift away from citizens and away from those check and balances to ensure the government of the day can't abuse the power they have.

Politicians are citizens, therefore you are saying you can trust no one.

This is not a South American or African pseudo democracy, all this cannot trust... or they will abuse powers and goodness know what else is just crazy.

I have dealt with a number of politicians from across the parties and I have found them to be straight up hardworking with the good of the nation at heart. I don't buy into the crazy.

The government is a hierarchic system and it would be naive to think that free thinking and best interests are put before the usual brown nosing, ladder climbing and enacting the agenda of the people higher up who run it...who seek nothing but to maintain their grip on power and the purse strings.

Sort of like the corporate world but at country level (much worse).

The sooner people wake up to the fact that

a) our country owes money to a higher power
b) you are nothing more than a tax number which the government can borrow off
c) b leads right back to a

The sooner you'll realize what the majority of laws are designed to do.

Crazy is thinking you can owe billions to an international bank and all that entity wants is interest on the debt.

Rikkitic

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#1199223 17-Dec-2014 15:10

KiwiNZ: I don't buy into the crazy.

Have you ever studied anything about mob behaviour? A very good film was made on this subject many years ago, I think in the 30s or 40s. I can no longer recall the title. The point about mobs, and bureaucracies, is that they are usually mostly made up of decent, honourable people. Yet something strange happens when a big group starts moving together in a common cause. This also emerged in nazi Germany. People who are individually good can collectively behave in a manner that is evil. Less dramatically, an organisation like a bank or government bureaucracy may end up doing things or promoting policies that no individual member supports. The issue is not that individual politicians have evil intentions, but that the group they are part of can do unintended things if there are not clear measures in place to prevent this. I think what we are arguing here is not that John Key is a reptilian shape-shifter, but that policies are being implemented without adequate protections.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

MikeB4

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#1199234 17-Dec-2014 15:19

Like the Marriage reform Act did not make our country crumble, the anti terror laws will not make it crumble. Tomorrow, Monday, January 1st and June 21 2025 we will wake up and find it still has not crumbled and Mary and Joe public are able to go about their business as usual. Well before this then of course
the Fourth Estate will have moved onto something new to do their miss informing.

heylinb4nz

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#1199254 17-Dec-2014 15:28

KiwiNZ: Like the Marriage reform Act did not make our country crumble, the anti terror laws will not make it crumble. Tomorrow, Monday, January 1st and June 21 2025 we will wake up and find it still has not crumbled and Mary and Joe public are able to go about their business as usual. Well before this then of course
the Fourth Estate will have moved onto something new to do their miss informing.

Narrow minded view again.

You have to look at the collective laws, the big picture, how they interface with each other, what they can lead to.

Bit like gun control legislation, lots of little changes leading to total confiscation, right or wrong, its done in an underhanded fashion of small changes with a bigger picture in view, these people know what they are doing, there is almost always an agenda, it may take years or decades to come to fruition by which time its to late to change your mind.

This view you take of complete trust and giving in to each small change is what "over time" erodes our overall rights as citizens and eventually turns us into tax paying slaves to an elite few who can stay in power under this lie called democracy.

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SaltyNZ

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#1199277 17-Dec-2014 16:01

KiwiNZ:
ajobbins:
KiwiNZ: They are poorly funded, poorly equipped and hamstrung by the lack of legislative support

They have PLENTY of legislative support, they just aren't using it right.

If funding and equipment are an issue, then address that, don't sell the rest of the country down the river by legislating their rights away to make up for other failings.

It's a bit like saying the police don't have enough funding to keep us safe after dark, therefore the solution is a countrywide imposed curfew and no one is allowed outside after dark.

You do realise that we had far more reaching and restricting laws etc during the second world war that were quickly repealed when the need past.

When will the war on terrorism be over?

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MikeB4

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#1199288 17-Dec-2014 16:07

SaltyNZ:
KiwiNZ:
ajobbins:
KiwiNZ: They are poorly funded, poorly equipped and hamstrung by the lack of legislative support

They have PLENTY of legislative support, they just aren't using it right.

If funding and equipment are an issue, then address that, don't sell the rest of the country down the river by legislating their rights away to make up for other failings.

It's a bit like saying the police don't have enough funding to keep us safe after dark, therefore the solution is a countrywide imposed curfew and no one is allowed outside after dark.

You do realise that we had far more reaching and restricting laws etc during the second world war that were quickly repealed when the need past.

When will the war on terrorism be over?

I read one assessment that was giving a ten year time frame. Logically never though. The current insurgents etc 10 years

ajobbins

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#1199290 17-Dec-2014 16:09

KiwiNZ: Like the Marriage reform Act did not make our country crumble, the anti terror laws will not make it crumble. Tomorrow, Monday, January 1st and June 21 2025 we will wake up and find it still has not crumbled and Mary and Joe public are able to go about their business as usual. Well before this then of course
the Fourth Estate will have moved onto something new to do their miss informing.

You seem to trust the government more than you trust the media. That is very naive, in my opinion.

Also, Marriage reform act was about extending rights. Surveillance laws are about taking rights away.

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heylinb4nz

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#1199291 17-Dec-2014 16:11

SaltyNZ:
KiwiNZ:
ajobbins:
KiwiNZ: They are poorly funded, poorly equipped and hamstrung by the lack of legislative support

They have PLENTY of legislative support, they just aren't using it right.

If funding and equipment are an issue, then address that, don't sell the rest of the country down the river by legislating their rights away to make up for other failings.

It's a bit like saying the police don't have enough funding to keep us safe after dark, therefore the solution is a countrywide imposed curfew and no one is allowed outside after dark.

You do realise that we had far more reaching and restricting laws etc during the second world war that were quickly repealed when the need past.

When will the war on terrorism be over?

When will countries stop borrowing money to fund wars ?? more importantly who benefits from wars. Hmmmmmm

MikeB4

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#1199292 17-Dec-2014 16:12

ajobbins:
KiwiNZ: Like the Marriage reform Act did not make our country crumble, the anti terror laws will not make it crumble. Tomorrow, Monday, January 1st and June 21 2025 we will wake up and find it still has not crumbled and Mary and Joe public are able to go about their business as usual. Well before this then of course
the Fourth Estate will have moved onto something new to do their miss informing.

You seem to trust the government more than you trust the media. That is very naive, in my opinion.

Also, Marriage reform act was about extending rights. Surveillance laws are about taking rights away.

The surveillance is also about protecting rights.

As for the Press they are self serving. The current Fourth estate bares no resemblance to that of the early 20th century.

roobarb

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#1199293 17-Dec-2014 16:13

KiwiNZ: I read one assessment that was giving a ten year time frame. Logically never though. The current insurgents etc 10 years

Aren't ISIS claiming it's a continuation of the Crusades, so it's not 10 years, more like over 900 years.

ajobbins

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#1199301 17-Dec-2014 16:19

KiwiNZ:The surveillance is also about protecting rights.

As for the Press they are self serving. The current Fourth estate bares no resemblance to that of the early 20th century.

Those seeking the power say it's about protecting the rights. The real world has shown mass spying does little or nothing to protect you from harm.

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MikeB4

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#1199305 17-Dec-2014 16:24

ajobbins:
KiwiNZ:The surveillance is also about protecting rights.

As for the Press they are self serving. The current Fourth estate bares no resemblance to that of the early 20th century.

Those seeking the power say it's about protecting the rights. The real world has shown mass spying does little or nothing to protect you from harm.

surely the removal of been able to have a coffee in safety, been able to travel on public transport in relative safety ( Interisland ferries noted as the exception) are all rights that have been taken from us that Government measures are seeking to restore?

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