Today's Whiskey Tango Foxtrot

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#3320087 13-Dec-2024 15:58

eracode:

TBH, thinking it through, I was wrong to accuse BNZ of being climate change police. Their policy on cancelling rural petrol stations’ loans is actually based on the incredibly stupid idea that rural people are going to migrate to electric cars en mass > buy less petrol > stations won’t be able to service debt and will go out of business owing BNZ millions. BNZ wants to force the stations to repay the debt before that happens. Believe it or not, that is how they explained their thinking behind this policy.

It’s actually a ridiculous Credit & Risk decision - not directly based on climate change ideology. There are so many erroneous things about all this, it’s hard to know where to start. People worldwide, including NZ, are rapidly reducing the number of EVs they’re buying - and IMO rural people would be the last demographic to adopt EVs for obvious reasons (range angst, charging, … ?).

It sounds like weasel words to me.

Many petrol stations run a garage and in rural places are the equivalent of the local dairy. They have income streams separate from selling petrol and diesel. These places would take a hit if they didn't sell petrol but would most probably be able to pay the bank back. However even with these other income streams they are still being blacklisted.

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#3320089 13-Dec-2024 16:07

eracode:
TBH, thinking it through, I was wrong to accuse BNZ of being climate change police. Their policy on cancelling rural petrol stations’ loans is based on the incredibly stupid idea that rural people are going to soon migrate to electric cars en mass > buy less petrol > stations won’t be able to service debt and will go out of business owing BNZ millions. BNZ wants to force the stations to repay the debt before that happens. Believe it or not, that is how they explained their thinking behind this policy.

It’s actually a ridiculous Credit & Risk decision - not directly based on climate change ideology. There are so many erroneous things about all this, it’s hard to know where to start. People worldwide, including NZ, are rapidly reducing the number of EVs they’re buying - and IMO rural people would be the last demographic to adopt EVs for obvious reasons (range angst, charging, … ?).

There was no mention from the BNZ statement about not lending to service stations in rural communities. That was in the Waitomo outrage statement. Even then it didn’t say BNZ weren’t lending to service stations in rural communities, just that rural communities would be most effected.

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#3320091 13-Dec-2024 16:07

Technofreak:

It sounds like weasel words to me.

Many petrol stations run a garage and in rural places are the equivalent of the local dairy. They have income streams separate from selling petrol and diesel. These places would take a hit if they didn't sell petrol but would most probably be able to pay the bank back. However even with these other income streams they are still being blacklisted.

Interested to know more about what you’re thinking. Do you mean that BNZ are actually driven by the climate change ideology - rather than the reasons they gave for the policy? Or do you mean there’s something else behind this?

At stage it’s more than weasel words because they really have implemented the policy - for whatever real reason.

Sometimes I just sit and think. Other times I just sit.

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#3320099 13-Dec-2024 16:32

Handle9:

There was no mention from the BNZ statement about not lending to service stations in rural communities. That was in the Waitomo outrage statement. Even then it didn’t say BNZ weren’t lending to service stations in rural communities, just that rural communities would be most effected.

Fair point - I was wrong - BNZ has not singled out rural stations. BNZ’s policy is broad and applies to all petrol stations - which are to be de-banked by 2030 and need to have repaid all debt by then.

So this is driven by climate change ideology - part of banks’ commitment to the Net-Zero Banking Alliance.

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#3320101 13-Dec-2024 16:33

eracode:

Handle9:

There was no mention from the BNZ statement about not lending to service stations in rural communities. That was in the Waitomo outrage statement. Even then it didn’t say BNZ weren’t lending to service stations in rural communities, just that rural communities would be most effected.

Fair point - I was wrong - BNZ has not singled out rural stations. BNZ’s policy is broad and applies to all petrol stations - which are to be de-banked by 2030 and need to have all debt repaid by then.

So this is driven by climate change ideology - part of banks’ commitment to the Net-Zero Banking Alliance.

Where does the article say that or is there another source?

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#3320108 13-Dec-2024 16:46

Handle9:

Where does the article say that or is there another source?

I have seen this in a couple of places and Scoop is a good example. Yes, I know about Scoop ….

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#3320109 13-Dec-2024 16:49

eracode:

TBH, thinking it through, I was wrong to accuse BNZ of being climate change police. Their policy on cancelling rural petrol stations’ loans is based on the incredibly stupid idea that rural people are going to soon migrate to electric cars en mass > buy less petrol > stations won’t be able to service debt and will go out of business owing BNZ millions. BNZ wants to force the stations to repay the debt before that happens. Believe it or not, that is how they explained their thinking behind this policy.

It’s actually a ridiculous Credit & Risk decision - not directly based on climate change ideology. There are so many erroneous things about all this, it’s hard to know where to start. People worldwide, including NZ, are rapidly reducing the number of EVs they’re buying - and IMO rural people would be the last demographic to adopt EVs for obvious reasons (range angst, charging, … ?).

I don't see any suggestion that this solely impacted rural stations, only that rural areas are 'most affected', probably because loss of a single station in a rural area has a much bigger impact on the detour length to the next nearest station.

Petrol station numbers have been reducing significantly in urban areas over the last ~20 years; many have been shut down and relatively few new ones (mostly low-cost) have been built. I expect this to continue.

Do you have a source on global EV sales falling? This seems to contradict that. NZ is definitely flatlining or falling due to removal of the rebate, but that's not necessarily a global trend.

I suspect a large portion of farmers already have an on-site diesel tank refuelled by tanker, and run their vehicles off that. Especially as we don't have separate taxed/untaxed diesel.

EDIT: And I got sniped... note that this is solely about lending for petrol stations, implied to be mostly about lending money for tank overhauls which are expensive. Shops are much cheaper and probably don't need significant mortgaging.

I would argue that being restricted from lending isn't being "de-banked"; there are plenty of other sources of finance but they might be more expensive. "De-banking" is where you can't even move money around, like the adult industry stuff discussed upthread.

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#3320112 13-Dec-2024 16:49

eracode:

Handle9:

Where does the article say that or is there another source?

I have seen this in a couple of places and Scoop is a good example. Yes, I know about Scoop ….

That isn't consistent with the BNZ statement. Given it's from Federated Farmers I'd take it with a very large pinch of salt.

They haven't released the actual documents they claim say this, just a press statement.

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#3320122 13-Dec-2024 17:06

eracode: TBH, thinking it through, I was wrong to accuse BNZ of being climate change police. Their policy on cancelling rural petrol stations’ loans is based on the incredibly stupid idea that rural people are going to soon migrate to electric cars en mass > buy less petrol > stations won’t be able to service debt and will go out of business owing BNZ millions. BNZ wants to force the stations to repay the debt before that happens.

They're a bank, "follow the money" will reveal the real motive behind anything they do no matter how it's dressed up for public consumption.

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#3320170 13-Dec-2024 17:09

eracode:

Technofreak:

It sounds like weasel words to me.

Many petrol stations run a garage and in rural places are the equivalent of the local dairy. They have income streams separate from selling petrol and diesel. These places would take a hit if they didn't sell petrol but would most probably be able to pay the bank back. However even with these other income streams they are still being blacklisted.

Interested to know more about what you’re thinking. Do you mean that BNZ are actually driven by the climate change ideology - rather than the reasons they gave for the policy? Or do you mean there’s something else behind this?

At stage it’s more than weasel words because they really have implemented the policy - for whatever real reason.

Correct with your first statement.

If I read and understood your post correctly BNZ were saying their reasoning was based on the premise that nearly everyone will driving EV's and not buying petrol therefore the business will not be able to generate enough business to pay back the loan. When in fact from what I read in the news articles the BNZ was "blacklisting " businesses that had income streams other than just petrol, therefore should be able to pay back loans.

To my way of thinking the argument of not enough petrol sales being the reason for "blacklisting " doesn't quite stack up, therefore there must me another underlying reason, climate change ideology.

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#3320172 13-Dec-2024 17:11

kingdragonfly: For those not familiar with "Among us" I'd place it in the same level of violence as Super Mario Brothers, the two mustachioed mercenaries with an insatiable thirst for destruction by repeated blunt-force trauma. Mario even incinerates enemies. Then there are the POW blocks, the weapons of mass destruction. The game ends with straight-up gladiatorial combat.

'Extremely ironic': Suspect in UnitedHealthcare CEO slaying played video game killer, friend recalls: NBC News us," he said.

I may still have, somewhere, a clip of a Herald headline (back when it was a serious paper) that said something like "Boy who committed suicide [*] played games of destruction".

"My hobbit takes a swing at the half-orc" (rolls 2d4) obviously drove him to it.

[*] Not sure if the headline would have used that exact word back then, maybe some other term.

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#3320176 13-Dec-2024 17:14

Technofreak:

Correct with your first statement.

If I read and understood your post correctly BNZ were saying their reasoning was based on the premise that nearly everyone will driving EV's and not buying petrol therefore the business will not be able to generate enough business to pay back the loan. When in fact from what I read in the news articles the BNZ was "blacklisting " businesses that had income streams other than just petrol, therefore should be able to pay back loans.

To my way of thinking the argument of not enough petrol sales being the reason for "blacklisting " doesn't quite stack up, therefore there must me another underlying reason, climate change ideology.

If a service station can't sell petrol it's secondary income streams won't keep the lights on. They will disappear anyway as the primary reason for customers to visit the disappears.

It's not a dairy that sells petrol as a sideline, the investment and cashflows don't work that way.

Technofreak

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#3320178 13-Dec-2024 17:21

Handle9:

Technofreak:

Correct with your first statement.

If I read and understood your post correctly BNZ were saying their reasoning was based on the premise that nearly everyone will driving EV's and not buying petrol therefore the business will not be able to generate enough business to pay back the loan. When in fact from what I read in the news articles the BNZ was "blacklisting " businesses that had income streams other than just petrol, therefore should be able to pay back loans.

To my way of thinking the argument of not enough petrol sales being the reason for "blacklisting " doesn't quite stack up, therefore there must me another underlying reason, climate change ideology.

If a service station can't sell petrol it's secondary income streams won't keep the lights on. They will disappear anyway as the primary reason for customers to visit the disappears.

It's not a dairy that sells petrol as a sideline, the investment and cashflows don't work that way.

Correct but many have a garage attached which doesn't rely on petrol sales. Those business are affected by this silliness.

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#3320179 13-Dec-2024 17:21

neb:

eracode: TBH, thinking it through, I was wrong to accuse BNZ of being climate change police. Their policy on cancelling rural petrol stations’ loans is based on the incredibly stupid idea that rural people are going to soon migrate to electric cars en mass > buy less petrol > stations won’t be able to service debt and will go out of business owing BNZ millions. BNZ wants to force the stations to repay the debt before that happens.

They're a bank, "follow the money" will reveal the real motive behind anything they do no matter how it's dressed up for public consumption.

This. If there's money in it for their business overall a bank will do it. They won't do things that give them a bad reputation as that will effect their business but if there's money in it at low risk they will do business.

It's very possible their assumptions are wrong but that doesn't make them idealogical, it's about money not feels.

The reaction pretty much seems to come down to this.

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#3320180 13-Dec-2024 17:25

Technofreak:

Handle9:

If a service station can't sell petrol it's secondary income streams won't keep the lights on. They will disappear anyway as the primary reason for customers to visit the disappears.

It's not a dairy that sells petrol as a sideline, the investment and cashflows don't work that way.

Correct but many have a garage attached which doesn't rely on petrol sales. Those business are affected by this silliness.

If it's a separate business it will be fine. It can borrow money as before.

If it's part of the same company then it's up to them to show the bankers that the borrowing is for the garage and not for the petrol station. They would also have to do the reverse in if borrowing for petrol station.

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