Prison Numbers, What To Do?

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#2064770 30-Jul-2018 08:23

Its quite difficult to get jailed in NZ. The average inmate has more than 30 convictions before they are jailed, most of these offenses relate to violent crime. Kiwiblog profiled a number of 'second strikers' recently and these guys are very bad people, they are beyond rehabilitation. Granny bashers and rapists, sexual assaults, murder etc....

I want people to have the opportunity at reform but where do you draw the line? 5 offence? 15? 40?

Do we want people like this on the street? You can argue cultural and racial oppression but the reality is he will not change and I feel much safer having people like this away from the public https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2018/06/meet_a_second_striker_4.html

This is his brother!
https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2018/06/meet_a_second_striker_7.html

Would you want them living next door to you, being 'rehabilitated'?

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#2064773 30-Jul-2018 08:27

jarledb:

I would think the main difference is that Norway is a country where poor people are way better off than in NZ. The benefits are higher and more livable. New Zealand is a harsher country to live in if you are poor.

Right. If you have nothing to lose (i.e. you don't have a healthy, safe, private home, nor disposable income to take advantage of leisure or other opportunities), you will take risks that might get you those things (steal, sell drugs), or to at least not feel as bad about not having them (i.e. use drugs or alcohol).

I suspect that the people who are calling for longer prison terms (and consequently more prisons) probably don't come from that economic group; i.e. they and their friends are unlikely to be affected by those policies.

surfisup1000

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#2064775 30-Jul-2018 08:40

MileHighKiwi: Its quite difficult to get jailed in NZ. The average inmate has more than 30 convictions before they are jailed, most of these offenses relate to violent crime.

Very true, if we were to release the least bad of 10% of the prison population you'd be having to release sex offenders, violent gang members, drug dealers, murderers, and violent criminals.

Possibly, you could decide to release non-violent offenders. But, then , you'd need to be releasing people convicted of stealing peoples life savings , or defrauding banks/employers of large sums of money.

Should tax offenders be in jail? Maybe home detention is good enough?

Geektastic

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#2064799 30-Jul-2018 09:27

jarledb:

Lastman:

In the Norway example, the article praises the justice system but, clearly, it is that Norwegian society is not generating the proportion of criminals that we do.

I would think the main difference is that Norway is a country where poor people are way better off than in NZ. The benefits are higher and more livable. New Zealand is a harsher country to live in if you are poor.

Norway also have a prison system focused on rehabilitation instead of punishment, so you are probably more likely not to be a re-offender after having been in prison.

A lot of our prison population is Maori, a feature which is not present in a society like Norway.

You are correct that the prison population in Norway does not consist of a lot of Maori.

It is however over represented by immigrants.

I think both issues have to do with the level of powerty in those groups, more than anything else.

I have fairly limited experience of Norway, but I would say also that the population (on the whole) is more compliant and more 'all rowing in the same direction' than here.

Perhaps a part of the problem is that NZ has no national direction: there is no widely accepted goal or plan for say 30 years from now and as the old saying goes, how will you know when you have arrived at your destination if you do not know what that destination is?

In simple terms, if Singapore is a slow, steady progression towards defined economic and social achievement then NZ is rather more "Yes, in 20 years we should....OH! Squirrel!"

MikeAqua

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#2064815 30-Jul-2018 09:58

Given the high number of people in prison with substance issues and/or mental health issues - they seem like obvious areas to work on to prevent crime. Also - given the level of recidivism, early intervention with people who do commit crimes and in-prison rehabilitation should be high priorities.

Another area for exploration is more options for non-custodial or semi-custodial sentences. I'd like to see lower-risk criminals given the option to reduce their sentences by engaging in some sort of useful community work (their choice) - from lower security work-camp type facilities, where conditions can be better than in prisons.

Speeding up the trial system would reduce the remand population and therefore the overall prison headcount.

Trials are painfully slow processes because every fact is argued twice and then summed up by the judge, because it is all done very slowly to allow for the varying intellects of jurors, or because the judge and/or prosecution and/or defence need to educate jurors in the law. Switching to a judge(s) only inquisitorial trial system might speed things up significantly.

Mike

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#2064821 30-Jul-2018 10:05

frankv:

jarledb:

I would think the main difference is that Norway is a country where poor people are way better off than in NZ. The benefits are higher and more livable. New Zealand is a harsher country to live in if you are poor.

Right. If you have nothing to lose (i.e. you don't have a healthy, safe, private home, nor disposable income to take advantage of leisure or other opportunities), you will take risks that might get you those things (steal, sell drugs), or to at least not feel as bad about not having them (i.e. use drugs or alcohol).

I suspect that the people who are calling for longer prison terms (and consequently more prisons) probably don't come from that economic group; i.e. they and their friends are unlikely to be affected by those policies.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I did come from those environments. I decided hard work, and education and good work ethic was a far easier route overall than crime. For me I think punishmen should fit the crime and I support rehabilitation, however there are some people who will be beyond saving. We need those people out of the general population.

For example, I was recently on fair go, for trying to expose a guy who takes money from people for doing paving work and then mucks them around, laying a couple of tiles a day, never intending to complete, nor provide the value. He lies, cheats and steals. He has taken money from MANY people repeatedly and uses loopholes to avoid being prosecuted for it. He went to prison once already, and really, broke all the terms of his parole, (we had video evidence) and still corrections did nothing. There was one sad story where he fleeced an old guy out of his meagre life savings, 28K odd.

I don't believe he can be rehabilited. The cost of supervising him would be similar to the cost of having him locked up. Locking him up for life is stupidly overkill obviously, but I believe he is still operating. Police have said it's just not worth prosecuting. He knows this and will continue.

SpartanVXL

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#2064886 30-Jul-2018 11:40

From the tone of some of the posts here, I hope some people have some leeway for innocents who are set up to fall by the more unscrupulous lot.

Once you're in that sort of mess it gets very difficult to dig yourself out

It is also deceivingly easy to fall into if you do not know the rules and actively avoid.

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networkn

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#2064888 30-Jul-2018 11:40

SpartanVXL: From the tone of some of the posts here, I hope some people have some leeway for innocents who are set up to fall by the more unscrupulous lot. Once you're in that sort of mess it gets very difficult to dig yourself out It is also deceivingly easy to fall into if you do not know the rules and actively avoid.

What on earth are you talking about?

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#2064901 30-Jul-2018 12:04

networkn:
SpartanVXL: From the tone of some of the posts here, I hope some people have some leeway for innocents who are set up to fall by the more unscrupulous lot. Once you're in that sort of mess it gets very difficult to dig yourself out It is also deceivingly easy to fall into if you do not know the rules and actively avoid.

What on earth are you talking about?

Thinking the same thing say whattttt?

John

SpartanVXL

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#2064903 30-Jul-2018 12:08

networkn:

What on earth are you talking about?

Apologies, I wasn't quite clear on this. Being set up, or innocent framed for a crime they did not commit.

A lot of the discussion is on what to do with the convicted, fitting punishment (or rehabilitation) and seems to assume that conviction is surefire. I would much rather the justice system be looked at first before putting anything new into after-conviction systems.

This is a personal opinion, but I find too often the wrong people get caught up in this system, while the ones who should be caught get away.

tdgeek

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#2064906 30-Jul-2018 12:12

SpartanVXL:
networkn:

What on earth are you talking about?

Apologies, I wasn't quite clear on this. Being set up, or innocent framed for a crime they did not commit. A lot of the discussion is on what to do with the convicted, fitting punishment (or rehabilitation) and seems to assume that conviction is surefire. I would much rather the justice system be looked at first before putting anything new into after-conviction systems. This is a personal opinion, but I find too often the wrong people get caught up in this system, while the ones who should be caught get away.

I imagine the level of innocents jailed for theft, violence, sex offences, and so on is very very very low. The thread is about the other 99.9%

The ability of the justice system to be 100% exact is another topic

EDIT

Further to that, the level of guilty people who get off on a technicality, or He's obviously guilty, but doesnt pass the legal tests, is likely a great deal amount more

networkn

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#2064907 30-Jul-2018 12:13

SpartanVXL:
networkn:

What on earth are you talking about?

Apologies, I wasn't quite clear on this. Being set up, or innocent framed for a crime they did not commit. A lot of the discussion is on what to do with the convicted, fitting punishment (or rehabilitation) and seems to assume that conviction is surefire. I would much rather the justice system be looked at first before putting anything new into after-conviction systems. This is a personal opinion, but I find too often the wrong people get caught up in this system, while the ones who should be caught get away.

I am wondering what percentage of the people who are in prison are there through no fault of their own? Surely you understand it's a TINY TINY percentage.

surfisup1000

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#2064908 30-Jul-2018 12:16

Linux:
networkn:

SpartanVXL: From the tone of some of the posts here, I hope some people have some leeway for innocents who are set up to fall by the more unscrupulous lot. Once you're in that sort of mess it gets very difficult to dig yourself out It is also deceivingly easy to fall into if you do not know the rules and actively avoid.

What on earth are you talking about?

Thinking the same thing say whattttt?

John

Maybe referring to miscarriages of justice. Such as David Bain (controversial yes), Peter Ellis, or Teina Pora, Arthur Allen Thomas?

Quite off topic though.

SpartanVXL

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#2064914 30-Jul-2018 12:30

Sorry, I agree that it was off topic from prison related discussion.

I will say that it's not quite as good as 99%. As they say, you won't know until you're in it, and I certainly wouldn't wish it upon most normal people.

nunz

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#2065306 30-Jul-2018 21:35

In the past part of jail / gaol systems has been repayment of debt. Now debtors prison is a bad way to go - but the idea of incarcerating people until they repay a criminal debt has some appeal:

It is part of the process of restitution - which is part of Norways process.Most of the time prison costs tax payers and does nothing to restore what was lost by the victim of the crime.

If a perpetrator was forced to pay back - financially or other ways, as part of their ability to get out of gaol, then there would be some motivation on their behalf to work towards getting out.

That could be through work programs, getting them to have a'job' while inside. Asset stripping, not just direct results of crime but others, should also be considered - especially in high end white collar crime. The number of white collar criminals who still own houses, cars and stuff joe average cant afford is unjust compared to the pain and damage they cause.

There is a huge disconnect between prison and restoring the damage. Prison is not fixing and restoring damage done. It just inflicts more damage. Revenge tastes good for a second but in the long run is unsatisfactory.

Also much more rehabilitative work - education, helping mentally ill, reconnecting with communities so the recidividism is reduced. Remove recidivists and your prison population drops significantly.

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