How long should what you say have consequences for?

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#2614535 2-Dec-2020 09:08

On a much lighter note, but kind of has a point:

In the '70's I enjoyed watching British comedy - Benny Hill, It Ain't Half Hot Mum, Mind Your Language etc.

I was a child. My parents weren't.

Looking back now, it was all blatantly racist, sexist and homophobic. Terrible stuff, really. Was it funny at the time? Yes. Was I inherently racist, sexist or homophobic back then? Maybe...although I had a lot of brown friends that I didn't really consider to be anything other than my friends (Small Town NZ in the '70's was pretty cool).

If there had been Social Media back then (other than letters to the editor in the local rag), I'd say a lot of the comments that people made about those shows and how much they enjoyed them would come back to bit them...hard.

I don't agree with any of the views that were espoused in those shows from a superficial perspective, as like I said - they were racist, sexist, homophobic etc. BUT: I did enjoy the comedy of those shows back then - over 40 years ago, when attitudes were different and social norms were not what they are now.

I don't think anyone should come back to me and cause me grief for once having openly liked those shows, or similar stuff. It was a long time ago and I don't appreciate that kind of "humor" anymore. My parents also don't hold those views anymore, despite the fact that "they should have known better" at the time.

Holding someone responsible for a view they expressed a long time ago doesn't sit well with me. Not at all. Unless that person is unrepentant...then they deserve all the criticism in the world.

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MikeB4

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#2614567 2-Dec-2020 09:48

networkn:

MikeB4:

Stating he no longer holds the opinions does not prove he no longer holds these opinions.

How would you like him to prove it? Lie Detector test? An interrogation? Waterboarding?

Stating it to be so publically, denouncing the views as unacceptable and that he is ashamed he held them, seems as close to what you can hope for under the circumstances.

At the end of the day, you can't guarantee he won't hold those views, but punishment will not guarantee that either. He does more for society publically denouncing it, than hiding him away saying nothing.

If what you want is something to make *you* feel better, and you feel stripping him of a role gets that done then that's a different story. Pretty unlikely that is the catalyst for change in a person, just makes them keep those deep-seated views hidden deeper.

I took some time to think about this response. I admit that it is influenced by personal experience and racism directed at my family.

Racism is an evil that is endemic in our communities it destroys societies, communities, families and individuals. The scars it leaves are deep and lifelong.

Simply stating that he no longer holds these beliefs is not sufficient and I suspect more stated to try and retain his position and income and not true remorse. Stating that he no longer holds these beliefs is not enough to treat the scars and repair the damage. He needs by action not words show that he no longer holds these beliefs. By accepting that he has lost his job because this is an action that will go some way however his actions after will show more. At 27 seven he is lucky he can rebuild but many victims of racism cannot, and their lives are forever scared. They say actions are greater than a thousand words, so he can prove that by his conduct going forward.

He to is a victim of racism so by taking positive action he will be treating the scars he has but those scars will never heal.

tdgeek

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#2614574 2-Dec-2020 09:56

networkn:

To what end does his punishment serve? It was 9 years ago, he is already sorry, he no longer holds these views and he can do far more with what he has learned in the position he holds, setting an example to others that big tough guys can change their views and admit their mistakes and that racism isn't an accepted view. Punishment is (should be) about rehabilitation, he seems already rehabilitated.

Agree. We also have prisons for various offenses, once you have done your time you can start over, rehabilitated hopefully. Life sentences aren't the sentence for every mistake we all make.

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#2614598 2-Dec-2020 10:26

tdgeek:

networkn:

To what end does his punishment serve? It was 9 years ago, he is already sorry, he no longer holds these views and he can do far more with what he has learned in the position he holds, setting an example to others that big tough guys can change their views and admit their mistakes and that racism isn't an accepted view. Punishment is (should be) about rehabilitation, he seems already rehabilitated.

Agree. We also have prisons for various offenses, once you have done your time you can start over, rehabilitated hopefully. Life sentences aren't the sentence for every mistake we all make.

So you are saying that if a thief says he no longer steals that is a valid defence. First there is the punishment then the rehabilitation. This persons punishment is the loss of his job and now he can stat his rehabilitation.

Geektastic

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#2614603 2-Dec-2020 10:35

BlinkyBill:

Geektastic:

How is anyone supposed to guard against that? Nobody can predict what might not be acceptable in 30 years but which is acceptable today.

it wasn’t acceptable 30 years ago or 9 years ago; and isn’t acceptable today, or 30 years in the future. It isn’t acceptable just because *you* think it is acceptable.

I think you missed the point.

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#2614605 2-Dec-2020 10:42

networkn:

I see today that Argentina Rugby Captain Pablo Matera has lost his captaincy over racist comments made 9 years ago. It's not the first time I have seen things like this happen, and not the first time I have wondered about starting this thread.

9 Years is a long time. It seems reasonable he probably doesn't hold those views any longer. Furthermore, he has unreservedly apologised, admitted it was wrong, publically.

Whilst I can understand feeling like he should be punished, I am not sure it solves anything.

I have over my 40 odd years, held views I no longer hold, based on my experiences, my environment and influences at the time, that I no longer hold. I don't think they were nice, or good values to hold, but I didn't know that back then. I would like to think that if I was doing good work, contributing to society, no longer held those views (or expressed them at the least) that I should be able to continue my good work. I sort of feel there should be a statute of limitations on the stupid or harmful things people say, as I think it's entirely possible for people to hold a view and have their minds entirely changed by changes in societal views, influences, experience etc..

I see it a bit in political circles.

In my opinion, people are quick to judge and condemn others, rush to be offended and I often feel that if someone shows geniune remorse and is otherwise contributing, hasn't had an ongoing history of harm in this manner, they should be condemned for holding those views back then, and we should all move on. If he said those things recently, today, or 3 months ago, then I would think sacking him could be a way to show condemnation, but this feels out of whack with any benefit that would occur. The potential good of him to teach others by providing an ongoing example, has greater value than sacking him for a view he states he no longer holds or supports.

I am not in this case, or any other, suggesting his comments were acceptable.

A number of people know me as a big Rugby fan. This is not a me making excuses for a Rugby player, I see it in all walks of life, today was just the example at hand.

how long depends on how many people like you or hate you and wants to hurt you bad. in the USA one fella says whatever he wants and no consequences

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#2614614 2-Dec-2020 10:54

MikeB4:

So you are saying that if a thief says he no longer steals that is a valid defence. First there is the punishment then the rehabilitation. This persons punishment is the loss of his job and now he can stat his rehabilitation.

So,I assume you feel the same way about Justin Trudeau (Canadian Prime Minister) and his blackface and brownface incidents?

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networkn

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#2614618 2-Dec-2020 10:58

Dingbatt:

MikeB4:

So you are saying that if a thief says he no longer steals that is a valid defence. First there is the punishment then the rehabilitation. This persons punishment is the loss of his job and now he can stat his rehabilitation.

So,I assume you feel the same way about Justin Trudeau (Canadian Prime Minister) and his blackface and brownface incidents?

Or Prince Harry, by all accounts a humanitarian who has done much for many people, who was photographed dressed like Hitler in his youth?

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#2614619 2-Dec-2020 10:58

My grand daughter was subjected to racism at age 6 and her innocence was taken. She has been subjected to racism several times since. We have tried to heal the wounds but we can never get rid of the scars and bring back her innocence. When your beautiful grand daughter comes to you in tears and asks you why this people did this to her it breaks your heart and I found it so hard to try and ease her pain but her hurt was, is for more than mine and much deeper. I will never ever tolerate racists and the disgusting beliefs.

Trying to trivialise his actions by saying it was nine years ago only serves to trivialise the damage and pain racism causes and by trivialising his racism gives tacit approval of his racism.

networkn

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#2614636 2-Dec-2020 11:27

MikeB4:

My grand daughter was subjected to racism at age 6 and her innocence was taken. She has been subjected to racism several times since. We have tried to heal the wounds but we can never get rid of the scars and bring back her innocence. When your beautiful grand daughter comes to you in tears and asks you why this people did this to her it breaks your heart and I found it so hard to try and ease her pain but her hurt was, is for more than mine and much deeper. I will never ever tolerate racists and the disgusting beliefs.

Trying to trivialise his actions by saying it was nine years ago only serves to trivialise the damage and pain racism causes and by trivialising his racism gives tacit approval of his racism.

No one (including him) is saying what he said was acceptable 9 years ago. I think it's reasonable that if someone makes a mistake, and then an amount of time goes on without them making the same or related mistake, the fact they made that mistake should not be excused, however, it shouldn't have the same consequences as if the behaviour had been continued. Otherwise, if you believe people are unable to be redeemed then we should execute people for their sins, which would dramatically help with man contributed climate change..

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#2614640 2-Dec-2020 11:32

@Dingbatt and @networkn in short yes I do feel the same. Justin Trudeau by an act of politically motivated apology and little corrective action demonstrates the presence of a sub-conscience bias and underlying racism. Prince Harry has taken action since that may demonstrate a genuine remorse but again sub-conscience may still exists especially given the well documented racism displayed by the British Royal family over the years.

MikeB4

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#2614648 2-Dec-2020 11:42

networkn:

MikeB4:

My grand daughter was subjected to racism at age 6 and her innocence was taken. She has been subjected to racism several times since. We have tried to heal the wounds but we can never get rid of the scars and bring back her innocence. When your beautiful grand daughter comes to you in tears and asks you why this people did this to her it breaks your heart and I found it so hard to try and ease her pain but her hurt was, is for more than mine and much deeper. I will never ever tolerate racists and the disgusting beliefs.

Trying to trivialise his actions by saying it was nine years ago only serves to trivialise the damage and pain racism causes and by trivialising his racism gives tacit approval of his racism.

No one (including him) is saying what he said was acceptable 9 years ago. I think it's reasonable that if someone makes a mistake, and then an amount of time goes on without them making the same or related mistake, the fact they made that mistake should not be excused, however, it shouldn't have the same consequences as if the behaviour had been continued. Otherwise, if you believe people are unable to be redeemed then we should execute people for their sins, which would dramatically help with man contributed climate change..

As I wrote earlier "Stating that he no longer holds these beliefs is not enough to treat the scars and repair the damage. He needs by action not words show that he no longer holds these beliefs. By accepting that he has lost his job because this is an action that will go some way however his actions after will show more."

tdgeek

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#2614652 2-Dec-2020 11:57

I think Matera has lost his captaincy and been suspended one game? I don't think that a few days will cause him to be redeemed and rehabilitated and be seen as has taken action. I would assume that the 9 years prior to the incident which I assume has been racism free, is testament to his redemption and rehabilitation. Which is the key point if we wish to make progress.

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#2614667 2-Dec-2020 12:13

mdooher:

tigercorp:

To what end does his punishment serve?

It tells thousands of children and adults who play or enjoy watching rugby that racism and degrading views are bad and shouldn't be tolerated. Pretty worthwhile messaging I think.

No, it doesn't, it tells them to keep their opinions to themselves.

"No, it doesn't, it tells them to keep their racist opinions to themselves."

There, fixed it for you 👍

Seems like a win to me.

networkn

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#2614679 2-Dec-2020 12:38

MikeB4:

As I wrote earlier "Stating that he no longer holds these beliefs is not enough to treat the scars and repair the damage. He needs by action not words show that he no longer holds these beliefs. By accepting that he has lost his job because this is an action that will go some way however his actions after will show more."

He has no option but to accept it, he wasn't offered a choice, so you aren't achieving anything in that regard. By action, you mean 9 years of not publically stating racist views? Non-Recurrence of the same behaviour is accepted by most as an acceptable "action". You can't and never will be able to stop someone thinking racist thoughts if they think them, no punishment changes it.

Anyways, we disagree, I am happy to move on.

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