NZ a soft touch

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#2677220 19-Mar-2021 14:01

tehgerbil:

The two whistleblowers say they alerted senior managers to fake invoices and dubious travel Harrison was taking but were then targeted in a restructuring she helped lead.

I don't know anything more about that case than is in the article you linked to and quoted above:

I suspect that "alerting senior managers" was a mistake, there probably was (or should have been) a policy for making a formal protected disclosure to a person appointed by the board/governing body specifically to handle these issues, who must keep the identity of the whistleblower confidential, investigate, present the findings to the board, and report back to the whistleblower.

It's fraught with problems, especially maintaining confidentiality when you're probably on your own or one of few with access to the information that enabled you to make the disclosure, so you're probably doxxing yourself anyway.

If the investigation hits a dead end, what do you do? You could go to the CE or board, or you could bypass internal processes and go to the SFO. Then you're completely exposed.

Meanwhile, you're faced with working with/for the person you've dobbed in, waiting until something happens...

Dulouz

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#2677226 19-Mar-2021 14:23

Dairyxox:

I hate these political threads, but let me re-frame the discussion a little:

Why do we punish people for crime at all? Maybe they all just need treatment instead at some level?

Are the current punishments going to discourage others from trying the same thing?

I'm sure some do need and would benefit from treatment. One of the main reasons we punish is for deterrence. Crime goes up if people think they can get away without punishment. Just look at the behaviour of individuals in riots where the chances of being caught are often slim.

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#2677244 19-Mar-2021 15:06

@Dulouz deterrent is not effective when dealing with mental illness. The effects of addiction and other mental illness diminish and alter the normal thought and cognitive abilities. The best approach is recognising the condition(s) and treating the root cause.

frankv

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#2677279 19-Mar-2021 15:39

Dulouz:

I'm sure some do need and would benefit from treatment. One of the main reasons we punish is for deterrence. Crime goes up if people think they can get away without punishment. Just look at the behaviour of individuals in riots where the chances of being caught are often slim.

This is not the Scandinavian experience. They have very comfortable prisons that sometimes don't even have fences. eg.g https://www.businessinsider.com.au/finland-prisons-technology-ai-online-classes-2020-8?r=US&IR=T. I guess that inmates at the open prison probably behave pretty well too, partly because they are treated like people, and partly because the closed prison is still there as a deterrent.

Personally, I think the key point with imprisoning people is that they need to have something to lose. Otherwise there is no deterrent. For many at the bottom end of the socio-economic pyramid, there's not a lot of difference between home and prison. For us middle-classers, losing a year or more of earning, and the downside of explaining at your job interview why you haven't worked recently, is huge. But for someone who has *no* hope of living in their own home, or owning a new car, or going to Disneyland, it's just another year of no financial progress, whether it be a minimum-wage job or the dole. And in prison there's no worry about getting your basic human needs.

tehgerbil

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#2677304 19-Mar-2021 16:21

Dairyxox:

I hate these political threads, but let me re-frame the discussion a little:

Why do we punish people for crime at all? Maybe they all just need treatment instead at some level?

Are the current punishments going to discourage others from trying the same thing?

Very arguably no.

For car related accidents, you're barely stopped by getting behind the wheel again. The ability to drive is treated as a god given right by the Courts, when it should be treated as a privelege.
For employee abuse by employers is underscored by the fact wage theft by employers is not considered a criminal act.
For fraud white collar crimes are given a slap across the wrist (as evident by this thread).

However there's the other side there are that we are too tough on -
Starving and can't feed your family so illegally claim $1600 in food - That'll be a deportation order thank you.

Our courts are messed up.

gzt

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#2677392 19-Mar-2021 20:50

Beavis: Now I don't consider myself a complete Redneck, but how can you steal 1 million dollars and get a sentence of 3 years? That is a "wage" of $333,000 a year. And lets face it, she gets out in 1.5 years anyway.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300255894/woman-jailed-for-stealing-1m-from-health-board-named

I have not looked at the details, just the article. I expect there are a couple of factors at work in that sentence. I expect the court heard good evidence that the offender did not personally gain much from the crime and had instead transferred the amounts to well known institutions of gambling.

gzt

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#2677394 19-Mar-2021 21:01

tehgerbil: It's not just fraud though.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/news/124477137/gasps-in-court-as-drugged-driver-in-fatal-crash-sentenced-to-nine-months-home-detention

His cars wasn't in a driveable condition (speedo didn't work).
He was high/coming down from meth.
He was high/coming down from weed.
He was going 20km+ above speed limit (not that he had any idea).
He went straight through a give-way and caused a man to die a likely excruciating death.

The court has determined the punishment for all of the above is a mere 9month home detention, a few sorries, $5k for the car! And another $5k retribution (@$20pw..).

I'll maintain the easiest way to get away with killing someone in this country is get drunk behind the wheel and smash into someone.

This does not make any sense to me. The article does not really cover any reasoning for that sentence at all. I'm probably not going to agree with it if there is. Has anyone seen more details on that?

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gzt

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#2677401 19-Mar-2021 21:14

tehgerbil: However there's the other side there are that we are too tough on -
Starving and can't feed your family so illegally claim $1600 in food - That'll be a deportation order thank you.

The article links to another article, may 2020:

Stuff: Desperate Queenstown migrants are seeking a relaxation of visa rules to allow them to seek new jobs as the coronavirus crisis puts thousands out of work. Samantha Korale Kankanange has invested seven years of his life in Queenstown working as a chef.

That basically sucks. If you don't get residency after working for seven years in NZ then I wonder what kind of country we are running here.

gzt

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#2677413 19-Mar-2021 21:58

Lias: The one that got me today was Nicola Willis being hung drawn and quartered for saying she's afraid to walk through the Wellington CBD. How have we come to a place where a woman can say she's concerned about her safety in the CBD, and she get's attacked and vilified for it by another woman,

Because in this case both women are politicians. I can kind of understand Davidson's reaction to Willis's original comments there was all kind of conflation in there.

Dratsab

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#2677485 20-Mar-2021 07:06

frankv: Personally, I think the key point with imprisoning people is that they need to have something to lose. Otherwise there is no deterrent. For many at the bottom end of the socio-economic pyramid, there's not a lot of difference between home and prison. For us middle-classers, losing a year or more of earning, and the downside of explaining at your job interview why you haven't worked recently, is huge. But for someone who has *no* hope of living in their own home, or owning a new car, or going to Disneyland, it's just another year of no financial progress, whether it be a minimum-wage job or the dole. And in prison there's no worry about getting your basic human needs.

Pretty much what I was going to say. Added to this, the thought of sanctions will usually deter the generally law abiding folk, but there's a reasonable segment of the population who don't have any regard for the law and don't think about 'what might happen.' For them the risk vs reward equation is very heavily weighted towards reward.

Those at the lower end of the socio-economic scale are very much disproportionately the victims of most crime in NZ and are also the ones least likely to report it. The New Zealand Crime and Victims Survey shows that around 77% of crime is not being reported so something needs to change as what we have currently is not working.

Dratsab

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#2677486 20-Mar-2021 07:08

tehgerbil: However there's the other side there are that we are too tough on -
Starving and can't feed your family so illegally claim $1600 in food - That'll be a deportation order thank you.

Our courts are messed up.

Deportation is an Immigration New Zealand matter, not a courts one. The courts merely upheld his conviction.

firewire

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#2677563 20-Mar-2021 12:05

Fred99:

Beavis:

Sorry if I sound sceptical, but metal health issues sound like a really good defence lawyer.

Nope. You don't sound sceptical, you sound like a conservative right-wing "law and order" campaigner on a soapbox.

The judge accepted that she had mental health issues, but of course you're more knowledgeable than he is.

Hope this thread gets sent to the politics forum. It belongs there.

I agree with Beavis. The person made the wrong moral choice which is why they were in court in the first place. They violated some law. Nothing to do with mental health. If it is then may as well not have laws at all.

tdgeek

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#2677575 20-Mar-2021 13:00

Celebrity gets caught with a homophobic or racial slur, or some dodgy activity. Apologises," thats not me, I will learn from this". BS. Out comes the wet bus ticket and support.

Handle9

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#2677617 20-Mar-2021 14:47

firewire:
I agree with Beavis. The person made the wrong moral choice which is why they were in court in the first place. They violated some law. Nothing to do with mental health. If it is then may as well not have laws at all.

So you sat in court, heard the evidence, read the mental health assessment and came to this conclusion?

firewire

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Master Geek

#2677705 20-Mar-2021 18:14

Handle9:
firewire:

I agree with Beavis. The person made the wrong moral choice which is why they were in court in the first place. They violated some law. Nothing to do with mental health. If it is then may as well not have laws at all.

So you sat in court, heard the evidence, read the mental health assessment and came to this conclusion?

No. If people violate law because of mental health "issues" then we don't need laws at all. Lawyers are using this to get their clients off. No wonder western society is in its current state of moral declension. Still I wouldn't expect anything less in a post modern, nihilistic, existentialist, idealistic, Godless society.

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