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Fred99
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  #2752221 30-Jul-2021 09:03
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MikeB4:

 

Any new entrant is not going help regional Aotearoa as they will in no doubt focus only on Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch. The current players will simply discount in the big centres which will be subsidised by the regions.

 

 

I think that's very pessimistic.

 

Plenty of small regional businesses that could supply the retail market never get a look in the door.  For the "Barkers" and "Pic's Peanut Butter" success stories, there are many for whom getting product on the shelf is impossible.  I've seen this from different sides, as a supplier to manufacturers and as a supplier to the supermarket chains. 

 

The barriers to getting a new product on the shelf are massive, a third chain would ease that considerably.

 

Foodstuff's and Progressive definitely do act as a duopoly and effective cartel.

 

When I was involved,  when trying to get a new product range onto the shelf, you'd have both chains rejecting your pitch, they screw you down, so you've got to drop product price to them below cost, and commit to high advertising costs and/or punitive supply conditions (ie to take back dated unsold product).  So you take a calculated punt to get in.  Sometimes it works, sometimes you accrue losses large enough to utterly destroy small start-up businesses. If you succeed, then like a miracle the other supermarket chain comes begging - they want your product.  Only then can you go back to the first chain who your dropped your pants for to try to adjust the business so that you're making a profit.  If you demand too much, then they'll drop you anyway, the other partner in the duopoly will know that happened, and you're back to being able to be held to ransom by having only one customer.

 

There's much focus on the effect of the duopoly on the retail customer, but there's also big issues with having a duopoly as a barrier to potential suppliers to the retailers.  And that reduces consumer choice, which reduces competition.

 

Maybe a quick trip into a Woolworths in Aus would convince sceptics.  Everything looks the same as a Countdown here, but there are far more brands on the shelves.

 

 




lxsw20
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  #2752230 30-Jul-2021 09:33
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An Online only supermarket may be the quickest thing to get off the ground. Ocado in the UK are using some pretty cool tech in their distribution centers - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KLHuLgbBRg

 

 

 

 


tdgeek
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  #2752234 30-Jul-2021 09:44
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Stuff today

 

Other countries don’t tolerate such uncompetitive markets. Similar-sized Denmark, for instance, has six major supermarket chains, four of them holding over 10 per cent of the market each.

 

 

 

News last night AUS has 6 main chains, largest has 22.9% market share, so with these two examples its very doable.




networkn
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  #2752239 30-Jul-2021 09:47
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I was going to point at population but Denmark is similar (AU is 4 times our size) but perhaps it's as much about population density, we are spread pretty far apart, can't make it easy or cheap to provide nationwide coverage.

 

 


tdgeek
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  #2752251 30-Jul-2021 10:07
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Good point. We are 18 people per square kilometre, Denmark is 137. Both countries have enough supermarkets to cater for the population, just that all of ours are controlled by two CEO's. 

 

Two CEO's control 6 brands, if say each brand was controlled by one CEO, that would appear to be ideal, and would allow suppliers to deal with all of them in a more capitalist manner.


MikeB4
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  #2752267 30-Jul-2021 10:42
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tdgeek:

 

Stuff today

 

Other countries don’t tolerate such uncompetitive markets. Similar-sized Denmark, for instance, has six major supermarket chains, four of them holding over 10 per cent of the market each.

 

 

 

News last night AUS has 6 main chains, largest has 22.9% market share, so with these two examples its very doable.

 

 

Comparing Aotearoa to the likes of Denmark is not a fair comparison. Population is only one metric there are many more that need to be compared. Any comparisons must take into account, Incomes, income spread, population density and spread, ethnic spread, transport both internally and import, utilities, tax, dietary requirements  and many many more.


lxsw20
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  #2752273 30-Jul-2021 10:55
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networkn:

 

I was going to point at population but Denmark is similar (AU is 4 times our size) but perhaps it's as much about population density, we are spread pretty far apart, can't make it easy or cheap to provide nationwide coverage.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That and you've got Sweden/Germany next door, so the effort to extend the distribution network isn't huge.


 
 
 

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tdgeek
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  #2752274 30-Jul-2021 10:56
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MikeB4:

 

Comparing Aotearoa to the likes of Denmark is not a fair comparison. Population is only one metric there are many more that need to be compared. Any comparisons must take into account, Incomes, income spread, population density and spread, ethnic spread, transport both internally and import, utilities, tax, dietary requirements  and many many more.

 

 

Both countries already have a spread of supermarkets to cater for everyone. I dont see how those metrics matter because the system is already in place

 

The issue is we have two controllers of the grocery market. But if you looked at dietary requirements and income, if we allowed competition into the grocery market which we currently do not have, incomes will benefit with better prices and there will be a wider range at each supermarket, assisting dietary needs

 

Either we want a monopoly (in our cases its a monopoly of two players, i.e, a duopoly) or we want competition to improve prices and service


networkn
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  #2752275 30-Jul-2021 10:57
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lxsw20:

 

networkn:

 

I was going to point at population but Denmark is similar (AU is 4 times our size) but perhaps it's as much about population density, we are spread pretty far apart, can't make it easy or cheap to provide nationwide coverage.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That and you've got Sweden/Germany next door, so the effort to extend the distribution network isn't huge.

 

 

Yes, actually that is a factor to consider as well, when you have directly connected neighbours, you have the potential to leverage them as well.


eracode
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  #2752284 30-Jul-2021 11:23
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Eva888: Bring in Aldi please.

 

We've shopped at Aldi in Europe in recent (pre-COVID) years and found that, although they had some stuff at very competitive prices, they didn't have a wide range or choice of stock. This meant we couldn't do our whole shop there - would have to go to another supermarket to get things Aldi didn't stock.





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stagnant16
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  #2752287 30-Jul-2021 11:29
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Fred99:

 

MikeB4:

 

Any new entrant is not going help regional Aotearoa as they will in no doubt focus only on Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch. The current players will simply discount in the big centres which will be subsidised by the regions.

 

 

When I was involved,  when trying to get a new product range onto the shelf, you'd have both chains rejecting your pitch, they screw you down, so you've got to drop product price to them below cost, and commit to high advertising costs and/or punitive supply conditions (ie to take back dated unsold product).  So you take a calculated punt to get in.  Sometimes it works, sometimes you accrue losses large enough to utterly destroy small start-up businesses. If you succeed, then like a miracle the other supermarket chain comes begging - they want your product.  Only then can you go back to the first chain who your dropped your pants for to try to adjust the business so that you're making a profit.  If you demand too much, then they'll drop you anyway, the other partner in the duopoly will know that happened, and you're back to being able to be held to ransom by having only one customer.

 

There's much focus on the effect of the duopoly on the retail customer, but there's also big issues with having a duopoly as a barrier to potential suppliers to the retailers.  And that reduces consumer choice, which reduces competition.

 

Maybe a quick trip into a Woolworths in Aus would convince sceptics.  Everything looks the same as a Countdown here, but there are far more brands on the shelves.

 

 

 

 

So not true.


MikeB4
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  #2752291 30-Jul-2021 11:37
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@tdgeek I believe you missed my point.


networkn
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  #2752294 30-Jul-2021 11:41
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stagnant16:

 

So not true.

 

 

Which part do you disagree with and why? That wasn't much of a contribution.


tdgeek
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  #2752295 30-Jul-2021 11:42
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MikeB4:

 

@tdgeek I believe you missed my point.

 

 

If you mean that all of the comparisons to Denmark means that they are best suited to 6 competitors, the largest at 22% of the market , and NZ are best suited to a monopoly of two, ironically operating 6 brands, I didn't miss that point.


MikeB4
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  #2752364 30-Jul-2021 11:51
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tdgeek:

 

 

 

If you mean that all of the comparisons to Denmark means that they are best suited to 6 competitors, the largest at 22% of the market , and NZ are best suited to a monopoly of two, ironically operating 6 brands, I didn't miss that point.

 

 

My point is that comparing Denmark to Aotearoa is largely pointless based on simple population count as all metrics need to be compared. Example Denmark is circa 42,000 square KMs Aotearoa is circa 260,000 square KMs. Denmark is flat with concentrated population centres. They are also part of a massive trading block. Just the transport and logistics for a new comer here would probably mean their pricing would more or less the same as the current players. 


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