Titanic tourist sub missing

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#3093085 21-Jun-2023 16:11

Rikkitic:

surfisup1000:

Probably physics. Sonar has a limited range. Radio waves do not pass through water.

Not true. Low frequency radio waves can penetrate water to an extent and according to this article extremely low frequencies can reach up to 120 metres depth.

Define limited range, most sonar will go a lot further than that with ease, but its not always that simple. layers of water temp can affect performance can play with the range you can detect stuff. Going straight down should be fine through as you eliminate almost of that stuff. Some more higher range depth sounders will go down the sort of distances we are talking here.

What do you think sonar used if not radio waves? "The range of the radio spectrum is considered to be 3 kilohertz up to 300 gigahertz." and most sonar will be within that frequency range, typically at the lower end of that spectrum.

underwater telephone systems can also be used over distances greater than what we are talking about here without to much issue.

neb

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#3093086 21-Jun-2023 16:12

johno1234:
neb: It didn't, it's an experimental scientific vessel that doesn't require certification.

If experimental then it shouldn't be allowed to take fare paying passengers. Well, that's how it works in aviation.

They weren't fare paying passengers, they were scientists who helped with the experiments.

Or at least on paper they were, which was how all that annoying certification stuff was sidestepped. They also signed a waiver where they acknowledged they were in an unapproved, uncertified vessel and accepted they could die as part of the experiment.

It's really a sort of a "how much do you not want to have anything to do with this whole operation" test.

surfisup1000

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#3093092 21-Jun-2023 16:24

Jase2985:

Define limited range, most sonar will go a lot further than that with ease, but its not always that simple. layers of water temp can affect performance can play with the range you can detect stuff. Going straight down should be fine through as you eliminate almost of that stuff. Some more higher range depth sounders will go down the sort of distances we are talking here.

I suppose my point is that radio communication is not easy under water. But, neither is diving to those depths so not really an excuse.

If the deep water communication technology exists then why were they not using it? Perhaps those systems cannot be installed in the types of subs that can descend to such depths?

It's tremendous that rescuers have detected signs of life, I very much hope they can rescue these poor souls.

Jase2985

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#3093096 21-Jun-2023 16:36

surfisup1000:

Jase2985:

Define limited range, most sonar will go a lot further than that with ease, but its not always that simple. layers of water temp can affect performance can play with the range you can detect stuff. Going straight down should be fine through as you eliminate almost of that stuff. Some more higher range depth sounders will go down the sort of distances we are talking here.

I suppose my point is that radio communication is not easy under water. But, neither is diving to those depths so not really an excuse.

If the deep water communication technology exists then why were they not using it? Perhaps those systems cannot be installed in the types of subs that can descend to such depths?

its not easy but there is plenty of technology and devices out there to allow it.

I cant answer why they were using it but given the jankyness of the rest of the submarine it seems like they didnt put too much thought into anything other than the pressure vessel. depth plays little part in sonar and underwater communitation, salinity and temperture have the biggest impact, so there is no reason they couldnt have had something in there, though im not saying that didnt though.

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#3093101 21-Jun-2023 16:39

neb:

They weren't fare paying passengers, they were scientists who helped with the experiments. Or at least on paper they were, which was how all that annoying certification stuff was sidestepped. They also signed a waiver where they acknowledged they were in an unapproved, uncertified vessel and accepted they could die as part of the experiment. It's really a sort of a "how much do you not want to have anything to do with this whole operation" test.

It has been widely reported that 3 passengers each paid $250k for the trip. For example:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/titanic-tour-company-offered-close-experience-250000-rcna90092

Calling a paying passenger a "mission specialist" sounds like the flimsiest of excuses to get around commercial marine law.

https://web.archive.org/web/20230207023129/https://oceangateexpeditions.com/tour/titanic-expedition/

Signing a waiver is irrelevant to the legality of the operation itself. You cannot waive away law.

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#3093108 21-Jun-2023 16:44

For all involved, I hope we end up with a Thai cave rescue end result.

Canuckabroad

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#3093110 21-Jun-2023 16:50

johno1234:

neb:

They weren't fare paying passengers, they were scientists who helped with the experiments. Or at least on paper they were, which was how all that annoying certification stuff was sidestepped. They also signed a waiver where they acknowledged they were in an unapproved, uncertified vessel and accepted they could die as part of the experiment. It's really a sort of a "how much do you not want to have anything to do with this whole operation" test.

It has been widely reported that 3 passengers each paid $250k for the trip. For example:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/titanic-tour-company-offered-close-experience-250000-rcna90092

Calling a paying passenger a "mission specialist" sounds like the flimsiest of excuses to get around commercial marine law.

https://web.archive.org/web/20230207023129/https://oceangateexpeditions.com/tour/titanic-expedition/

Signing a waiver is irrelevant to the legality of the operation itself. You cannot waive away law.

One would hope that a lawyer had given them some advice about whether or not making them 'mission specialists' (which is I believe the title given to astronauts) and signing wavers was sufficient to shield the company from lawsuits in the event something went wrong. I agree it's clearly violating the intention if not the letter of the law protecting tourists from tour operators.

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#3093112 21-Jun-2023 16:52

johno1234:

neb:

They weren't fare paying passengers, they were scientists who helped with the experiments. Or at least on paper they were, which was how all that annoying certification stuff was sidestepped. They also signed a waiver where they acknowledged they were in an unapproved, uncertified vessel and accepted they could die as part of the experiment. It's really a sort of a "how much do you not want to have anything to do with this whole operation" test.

It has been widely reported that 3 passengers each paid $250k for the trip. For example:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/titanic-tour-company-offered-close-experience-250000-rcna90092

Calling a paying passenger a "mission specialist" sounds like the flimsiest of excuses to get around commercial marine law.

It was probably framed as an "investment" in the company rather than a passenger fare.

Gurezaemon

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#3093113 21-Jun-2023 16:53

networkn:

For all involved, I hope we end up with a Thai cave rescue end result.

Indeed. But without Elon Musk making even more of an insufferable plonker out of himself than usual.

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#3093116 21-Jun-2023 16:56

Jase2985:

surfisup1000:

I suppose my point is that radio communication is not easy under water. But, neither is diving to those depths so not really an excuse.

If the deep water communication technology exists then why were they not using it? Perhaps those systems cannot be installed in the types of subs that can descend to such depths?

its not easy but there is plenty of technology and devices out there to allow it.

I cant answer why they were using it but given the jankyness of the rest of the submarine it seems like they didnt put too much thought into anything other than the pressure vessel. depth plays little part in sonar and underwater communitation, salinity and temperture have the biggest impact, so there is no reason they couldnt have had something in there, though im not saying that didnt though.

It's been reported that the comms were sonar/acousitic. The sub was effectively remote controlled from the surface via text message

Rikkitic

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#3093122 21-Jun-2023 17:10

surfisup1000:

Rikkitic:

Not true. Low frequency radio waves can penetrate water to an extent and according to this article extremely low frequencies can reach up to 120 metres depth.

You do realise the Titanic is 3800m down?

I was responding to the assertion that radio waves do not propagate through water. That is incorrect.

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neb

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#3093123 21-Jun-2023 17:19

Canuckabroad:
One would hope that a lawyer had given them some advice about whether or not making them 'mission specialists' (which is I believe the title given to astronauts) and signing wavers was sufficient to shield the company from lawsuits in the event something went wrong. I agree it's clearly violating the intention if not the letter of the law protecting tourists from tour operators.

Sidestepping regulations via legal fictions is a core part of the business models of a great many companies, of which Uber and Airbnb spring immediately to mind, who have made a fortune by doing so with few real repercussions. They were just following the lead set by others.

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#3093131 21-Jun-2023 17:40

neb:
Canuckabroad:

One would hope that a lawyer had given them some advice about whether or not making them 'mission specialists' (which is I believe the title given to astronauts) and signing wavers was sufficient to shield the company from lawsuits in the event something went wrong. I agree it's clearly violating the intention if not the letter of the law protecting tourists from tour operators.

Sidestepping regulations via legal fictions is a core part of the business models of a great many companies, of which Uber and Airbnb spring immediately to mind, who have made a fortune by doing so with few real repercussions. They were just following the lead set by others.

It's all part of the tech bro party pack.

Laws and profits are so 20th century. It's all about growth and being "agile."

gzt

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#3093139 21-Jun-2023 18:25

Is it international waters or Canadian?

Canuckabroad

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#3093140 21-Jun-2023 18:29

It's in international waters - about 740km off the coast of Newfoundland, Canada.

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