Joining a union - newbie questions

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gzt

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#3226083 3-May-2024 14:30

Larger unions like PSA tend to provide a few additional benefits that may be attractive in some cases. In my area there is a GP practice free of charge for union members.

larknz

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#3226094 3-May-2024 14:56

MikeAqua:

Generally speaking, you can sign up to an applicable collective agreement at any time. In fact, NZ is now an opt-out country. If you were employed tomorrow, into a role that is under the coverage of a collective agreement, you would legally have to sign onto the collective (without joining the union) for the first x weeks, after which you can opt out. (unless this law has changed since the election).

If you are in a senior role, you may be precluded from joining the union. Generally, unions preclude anyone with the delegated authority to terminate a person's employment, because that is seen as a conflict between duties to the collective and duties as a representative of the employer.

Not quite correct. Senior employees can be union members but they won't be in the collective. The union can still represent the senior members.

Handle9

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#3226100 3-May-2024 15:10

scuwp:

Same here. IANAL but consider it may be because the law requires employers to be fair and equitable, or words to that effect, so they can't disadvantage IEA workers over union workers, at least not substantially. There are slightly different provisions within the PSA or Etu agreements that guarantee certain things in my work place, but my opinion is they are not worth the cost of membership. I was a PSA member for a very long time, they never achieved anything of substance for me and found them quite ineffective. That was a while ago now though.

Employers are not required to match terms across different bargaining types and don't. Certainly there can be a variety of differenct contracts in a workplace for the same role, with different people getting quite different benefits packages for the same role.

They generally give IEA workers the same or better terms as if they didn't it would encourage them to join the union. Having the majority of workers in the union is clearly not in the employers best interest.

Handle9

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#3226179 3-May-2024 19:18

heavenlywild:

And how does an employer even budget for this extra cost? Say someone earns 70k. Suddenly they join the collective that gives them 5k increase in July. Suddenly you have 100 people join. How does the employer suddenly come up with 500k at the drop of a hat?

Quite simply that's a them problem, not a you problem. When the employer negotiates an agreement that benefits members of the union they know that either they have to extend the same provisions to IEA employees or they will all join the union to get the benfit. If they are at all competent they will have budgeted for this.

Either way do what is most beneficial for you. The employer will do what is most beneficial for them, that's the way it works.

Loismustdye

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#3226204 3-May-2024 20:21

I Work in health and was a previous union delegate for approx 7 years (not psa or nzno) and was a member for 18 years of my career, and have not belonged to the union for the last 7. Our dept sits at approx 50% membership mostly due to poor behaviour of said union and the delegates approx 7 years ago.

A small number of staff entered into the psa last year as philosophically they believed in unions and what they do but refused to join the current union staff belonged to. Short answer is PSA was less than useless in regards to communication, representation and correspondence of any sort, phone calls were never returned and emails were ignored, resulting in those staff resigning from psa after a number of months and currently being unaffiliated with any union.

We get the same contract as the current union members get albeit a a month or two later, as well as any backpay. The only difference with the last one was the union members got a one off payment that didn’t even cover the membership fees for the term of the contract.

heavenlywild

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#3226228 3-May-2024 20:56

@Loismustdye

When you say you got the pay increase and back pay a few months later than union members, was that initiated by the employer?

Was there any early indications that they were going to match it?

Loismustdye

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#3226768 5-May-2024 21:26

heavenlywild:
@Loismustdye

When you say you got the pay increase and back pay a few months later than union members, was that initiated by the employer?

Was there any early indications that they were going to match it?

This has been standard for as long as Ive been a worker, DHBs tend to only have one contract for the same workers whether union or non-union.

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BlakJak

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#3226903 6-May-2024 10:39

I've been a public sector employee for about half of my career across multiple agencies.
I've always been on an Individual Employment Agreement (IEA). In my experience this is what tends to get offered first and if you then choose to opt to join the Union (usually PSA but there are others depending on the industry your agency is relevant to) you can do so within your first few weeks.

I've never done it. My experience under an IEA has been that the marginal differences in employment conditions are just that - marginal - and so i've not seen the value in joining.

However the rider there is - i've not yet ever been in a serious employment dispute or concern where the union's advocacy would've helped. And - for a significant amount of my time - i've been a hiring manager and thus, ineligible for the Collective Employment Agreement (CEA). The marginal improvements under the CEA have usually been around simple allowances (like $500 per year for gym, or health benefit or perk or somesuch), and in return for that benefit you usually pay some union dues which in the end takes some of the value of that benefit back (and fair enough).

If you feel confident engaging with your employer around any minor issues you may experience; if you don't need the horsepower of the union around any advocacy or labour concerns, then I think you're fine with most employers on an IEA. But the Union certainly provides value in terms of advocacy and lobbying for the rights of the employee and I fully respect and support those who go that way.

No signature to see here, move along...

JimmyH

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#3234280 24-May-2024 13:37

BlakJak:

However the rider there is - i've not yet ever been in a serious employment dispute or concern where the union's advocacy would've helped. And - for a significant amount of my time - i've been a hiring manager and thus, ineligible for the Collective Employment Agreement (CEA). The marginal improvements under the CEA have usually been around simple allowances (like $500 per year for gym, or health benefit or perk or somesuch), and in return for that benefit you usually pay some union dues which in the end takes some of the value of that benefit back (and fair enough).

I'm not a manager now, although I have been in the past. While I haven't been directly involved, in two cases I am aware of the details of disputes where the PSA represented their members, and to be honest I felt sorry for them. In both cases the PSA did a terrible job of representing them (and in one case the PSA directly admitted that representing that member wasn't a priority for the PSA "because they were highly paid"). In both cases they would have been far better off represented by a even a moderately competent lawyer, or even just doing it themselves. They certainly didn't get what they paid for.

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