Single use plastic bags to be banned.

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Ultimate Geek

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#2975980 1-Oct-2022 15:52

Eva888:

We raced off to get cotton bags to replace the plastic ones until we found out that we need to use it 20,000 times or for 54 years to offset the impact of its production. I hope that paper isn’t going the same way.

That 20,000x number is taken wildly out of context. That was a maximum. The error bars on the estimate extended all the way down to 150x.

There is also a bunch of other crap built into it that is very odd in some circumstances, like impact on the ozone layer.

The original report if you'd like to read it is here: Rapport (mst.dk) and the table with that number is on page 125/126.

The UK commissioned a similar report that came up with a number of 130x, here: scho0711buan-e-e.pdf (publishing.service.gov.uk) or still less than 400x if the plastic bag is reused 3x itself.

k1w1k1d

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#2975984 1-Oct-2022 16:10

Were retailers etc aware that these changes were happening, or did the government spring them on them without warning?

I see one of the options for getting rid of these now banned plastics you have is to "Dispose of them to landfill".

mkissin

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#2975990 1-Oct-2022 16:45

k1w1k1d:
Were retailers etc aware that these changes were happening, or did the government spring them on them without warning?

I see one of the options for getting rid of these now banned plastics you have is to "Dispose of them to landfill".

Spoiler alert: they all end up there at some point. Unless they end up in a turtle or something, of course.

Eva888

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#2976005 1-Oct-2022 17:17

From page 93 of the Danish report.

*Organic cotton bags: Reuse for grocery shopping at least 149 times for climate change, and up to 20000 times considering all indicators; reuse as waste bin bag if possible, other- wise incinerate.

Conventional cotton bags: Reuse for grocery shopping at least 52 times for climate change, and up to 7100 times considering all indicators; reuse as waste bin bag if possible, otherwise incinerate.*

@mkissin As someone wise once said...Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost more for support than illumination ;)

Edit name and probably still spelt it wrong

mkissin

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#2976010 1-Oct-2022 17:27

Eva888: From page 93 of the Danish report.

*Organic cotton bags: Reuse for grocery shopping at least 149 times for climate change, and up to 20000 times considering all indicators; reuse as waste bin bag if possible, other- wise incinerate.

Conventional cotton bags: Reuse for grocery shopping at least 52 times for climate change, and up to 7100 times considering all indicators; reuse as waste bin bag if possible, otherwise incinerate.*

@mkissin As someone wise once said...Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost more for support than illumination ;)

Edit name and probably still spelt it wrong

The "all indicators" is largely based on like ozone layer impact, due to energy emissions from irrigation of the cotton (Are organic cotton totes really worse than plastic bags? (metabolic.nl)). So that's easily fixable, and you're getting environmental benefit right from that 149 level, which is fairly easily achievable.

Edit; there was an unfortunate misunderstanding. All good now!

Eva888

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#2976011 1-Oct-2022 17:36

mkissin:
Eva888: From page 93 of the Danish report.

*Organic cotton bags: Reuse for grocery shopping at least 149 times for climate change, and up to 20000 times considering all indicators; reuse as waste bin bag if possible, other- wise incinerate.

Conventional cotton bags: Reuse for grocery shopping at least 52 times for climate change, and up to 7100 times considering all indicators; reuse as waste bin bag if possible, otherwise incinerate.*

@mkissin As someone wise once said...Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost more for support than illumination ;)

Edit name and probably still spelt it wrong

I enjoy that you attached a thinly veiled insult there. Nice touch. Really lends credence to your argument.

The "all indicators" is largely based on like ozone layer impact, due to energy emissions from irrigation of the cotton (Are organic cotton totes really worse than plastic bags? (metabolic.nl)). So that's easily fixable, and you're getting environmental benefit right from that 149 level, which is fairly easily achievable.

Anyway, my point was that it's complicated, but I really only enjoy good faith banter, not whatever that was, so I'm out now.

It wasn’t meant to insult or offend you in any way. It was more a good natured way of agreeing that statistics can be as you yourself say, complicated. Apologies if it came across otherwise.

Handle9

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#2976033 1-Oct-2022 18:57

k1w1k1d:
Were retailers etc aware that these changes were happening, or did the government spring them on them without warning?

I see one of the options for getting rid of these now banned plastics you have is to "Dispose of them to landfill".

The regulation was passed in March.

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Oblivian

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#2976034 1-Oct-2022 19:04

But on the news rallying together with 'we wish we had a reminder as most suppliers get them from China and they are out of stock so not sure what we are going to do'

Handle9

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#2976035 1-Oct-2022 19:05

Eva888: Getting rid of plastic yet local law states that you have to wrap the entire building in thousands of meters of heavy duty plastic to renovate or build it. We managed for so many years to build without this.

We managed for so many years to build homes that are impossible to heat efficiently. Then we built homes that could be heated but rotted.

mkissin

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#2976037 1-Oct-2022 19:09

At least the building wraps are likely to end up almost exclusively in the proper places. That’s also the sort of thing that could conceivably be recycled easily, as it’s a lot of a single material and probably relatively clean. The really difficult stuff is the post general public consumer waste.
It’s not about reducing things to zero necessarily, but using things wisely, and preferentially designing a circular economy for them.

freitasm

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#2976041 1-Oct-2022 19:40

Ironic how organic cotton bags are worse than traditional cotton bags for the environment, going on the number of use required to offset production.

Eva888

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#2976120 1-Oct-2022 22:37

Handle9:
Eva888: Getting rid of plastic yet local law states that you have to wrap the entire building in thousands of meters of heavy duty plastic to renovate or build it. We managed for so many years to build without this.

We managed for so many years to build homes that are impossible to heat efficiently. Then we built homes that could be heated but rotted.

Temporary wrapping of a building during construction does nothing to change the quality of the finished product so why not stop this practice. It was a great idea until my ear buds and plastic bag became a sin to use.

I cant help wondering how many single use plastic bags or stirrers or buds would the vast amount of heavy duty building wrapping be equivalent to. Then there’s the pallet wrapping of millions of pallets, I’ve never seen a pallet transported without wrapping. Millions of containers are filled with heavy plastic wrapping.

It seems like we are being told to stop using flimsy, insignificant items like stirrers and doggy poo bags while ignoring the elephant.

allan

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#2976124 1-Oct-2022 22:47

I was somewhat confused by the item on TV1 News tonight where the interviewed expert said compostable containers were not good because almost no one home composted. Surely they can go out with household rubbish and you know, compost?

Handle9

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#2976137 1-Oct-2022 23:14

Eva888:
Handle9: [

We managed for so many years to build homes that are impossible to heat efficiently. Then we built homes that could be heated but rotted.

Temporary wrapping of a building during construction does nothing to change the quality of the finished product so why not stop this practice. It was a great idea until my ear buds and plastic bag became a sin to use.

I cant help wondering how many single use plastic bags or stirrers or buds would the vast amount of heavy duty building wrapping be equivalent to. Then there’s the pallet wrapping of millions of pallets, I’ve never seen a pallet transported without wrapping. Millions of containers are filled with heavy plastic wrapping.

It seems like we are being told to stop using flimsy, insignificant items like stirrers and doggy poo bags while ignoring the elephant.

Building wrap is part of the permanent installation. Temporary wrapping is only for retrofit cladding.

Oblivian

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#2976138 1-Oct-2022 23:16

Surely they can go out with household rubbish and you know, compost?

Quite fussy on the condition to make them break down.

Including high temperature. Which most don't get to. So need commercial composting which meet them. Ironic huh.

https://environment.govt.nz/assets/publications/compostables-packaging-position-statement.pdf

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