Police use of ANPR cameras

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#635910 5-Jun-2012 10:43

BlueShift:
SpookyAwol: ANPR is not a speed camera. It does not automatically send a ticket for warrant and reg. Its a monitoring tool. A lot of of what it does is quite useful for the majority of drivers

It isn't specifically a speed camera, but two of them working in concert can be - if your plate is snapped by one camera at 10:00 and by another camera 10km away at 10:08, your average speed was well over 50kmph.
They can quite easily be set up to to the automatic ticketing thing too, subject to any changes in legislation that may be needed.

Paranoid much?

They have speed camera's for that. The Police aren't going to spend all those $$$$ on ANPR technology and then use them for simple speed enforcement. The law wouldn't allow it anyway, and a re-write of that legislation would be intensive.

Lazy is such an ugly word, I prefer to call it selective participation

SpookyAwol

626 posts

Ultimate Geek

#635911 5-Jun-2012 10:44

surfisup1000:

We are discussing the potential applications of ANPR.

We werent - the OP seemed to be talking about the existing use of ANPR and there seemed to be some misunderstanding on what it was capable of. If you wish to discuss the potential, then you only have to look at what the UK is doing (and have been doing for some time) with a system that is quite powerful.

Skolink

1081 posts

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#635918 5-Jun-2012 10:52

SpookyAwol: Ultimately the theme that runs through this entire conversation is that laws are there to be followed. If not, you suffer the punitive consequences. That hasnt changed for centuries

For example in Nazi Germany, Apartheid South Africa, present day Syria...
Your papers citizen...

BlueShift

1692 posts

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#635955 5-Jun-2012 11:49

scuwp: Paranoid much?

They have speed camera's for that. The Police aren't going to spend all those $$$$ on ANPR technology and then use them for simple speed enforcement. The law wouldn't allow it anyway, and a re-write of that legislation would be intensive.

This is Geekzone, you haven't heard of feature creep?
Sure, the current ANPR cameras being trialled right now are mounted in patrol cars and give a specific and limited amount of data about each vehicle they recognise.
Speed cameras were initially only used in signposted areas but actual officers. Now they are used anywhere, and operated by non-sworn staff.
The overseas (UK) experience says once the camel gets in nose in the tent, we will get fixed ANPR cameras on busy roads, which simply record regos in a database, then a huge range of datamatching becomes available. Much of it very useful - several murder cases in the UK recently have used ANPR databases to place suspects vehicles near crimescenes at the time of the crimes. Its a short step from there to speed checking, congestion charge collections, road toll collection.
As many have said - don't do the crime if you can't do the time. Those who have nothing to hide have nothing to fear. Just don't take the spin at face value - what they are trialling is not what we'll end up with.

RunningMan

8953 posts

Uber Geek

#635973 5-Jun-2012 12:17

BlueShift: . Its a short step from there to speed checking, congestion charge collections, road toll collection.

Not a Police function, but they've been used for toll collection for a few years now.

surfisup1000

5288 posts

Uber Geek

#635986 5-Jun-2012 12:28

We werent - the OP seemed to be talking about the existing use of ANPR and there seemed to be some misunderstanding on what it was capable of. If you wish to discuss the potential, then you only have to look at what the UK is doing (and have been doing for some time) with a system that is quite powerful.

Did you read the OP original post? Here it is for you....

"I would be most interested to see what others users of this site think about the introduction of ANPR cameras into New Zealand"

" Is this is merely yet another revenue gathering tool to catch motorists with minor offences, similar to Police hiding in vans with speed cameras. "

So, yes , we were.

Thanks.

SpookyAwol

626 posts

Ultimate Geek

#636027 5-Jun-2012 13:21

Youre entitled to your opinion as I am mine. I read it differently. Thanks.

Just as this person did:

For example in Nazi Germany, Apartheid South Africa, present day Syria...
Your papers citizen...

It seems more gets read into these discussions than is warranted......

If you wish to discuss the 'potential' from a technical perspective then by all means, otherwise we will leave this discussion to the paranoid big brother fanatics (it seems there are a few)

Its a shame its a few years behind the brits (Id guess a good 10) because their systems are fairly common place. The introduction of speed camera vans did achieve the purpose of lowering average speeds - is this a bad thing?

Id guess the Police arent going to introduce fully advanced systems due to budgetary constraints. However we have seen previous systems have lots of money thrown at them for no gain (INCIS anyone?)

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kingjj

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#636143 5-Jun-2012 15:41

hashbrown:
SpookyAwol: That says to me that Police are targeting the right car and fortunately a licenced driver is in charge. Would you prefer that Police didnt stop vehicles of interest ?

Do I oppose the police harassing family members because of something a relative has done. Yes.

SpookyAwol: People are disqualified for many reasons - one of which is drunk driving. It gives me peace of mind to know that technologies like ANPR are ensuring that those that shouldnt be driving can be targeted.

1. It's not the people being targetted, it's the vehicles. The "clever" (using the word in the losest sense) disqualified drivers will transfer their cars into some elses name. Meanwhile the wife of a less dishonest disqualified driver who is supporting the family after hubby lost his license and job being is picked on by the cops every 5 minutes because the vehicle has been flagged.
2. This is probably something most people are comfortable with until they get flagged through a clerical error, buying a car from a disqualified driver, or they dated a cop who added them into the database after the relationship ended badly.

SpookyAwol: ANPR is not a speed camera. It does not automatically send a ticket for warrant and reg. Its a monitoring tool. A lot of of what it does is quite useful for the majority of drivers

No problem with this being used for warrant and reg checks. There is a clear infringement there. Also suspect this would be a far better way of picking up on disqualified drivers than flagging the vehicles they own.

Do you have any thing to base these accusations on? Any research, reviewed articles or papers? Do you really think a Police Officer is going to risk their job to cause their ex some inconvenience? The Police Code of Ethics is black and white about appropriate use of Police systems.

Part of driving a vehicle on NZ roads is that you can be stopped by Police and under go a licence/vehicle check, if you happen to be driving a vehicle that a disqualified driver has been known to use within the recent past than that is unfortunate as you are more likely than others to get checked, get used to it. Besides a flag can be removed at anytime, so this "harassment" is not guaranteed to continue.

Dratsab

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#636150 5-Jun-2012 15:56

I think the mods need to create a "Paronoia" forum and move this discussion there...

jeffnz

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#636156 5-Jun-2012 15:59

yep I agree, tin foil hat wearing mandatory to post

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old3eyes

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#636168 5-Jun-2012 16:26

SpookyAwol: Youre entitled to your opinion as I am mine. I read it differently. Thanks.

Just as this person did:
For example in Nazi Germany, Apartheid South Africa, present day Syria...
Your papers citizen...

It seems more gets read into these discussions than is warranted......

If you wish to discuss the 'potential' from a technical perspective then by all means, otherwise we will leave this discussion to the paranoid big brother fanatics (it seems there are a few)

Its a shame its a few years behind the brits (Id guess a good 10) because their systems are fairly common place. The introduction of speed camera vans did achieve the purpose of lowering average speeds - is this a bad thing?

Guess you would like to live in a British type of police state where every move is watched and recorded. Taking a foto of a cop can land you in jail..

Regards,

Old3eyes

SpookyAwol

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Ultimate Geek

#636172 5-Jun-2012 16:30

Defense rests.

Dratsab

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#636266 5-Jun-2012 19:31

SpookyAwol: Defense rests.

hashbrown

463 posts

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#636292 5-Jun-2012 20:00

kingjj: Do you have any thing to base these accusations on? Any research, reviewed articles or papers? Do you really think a Police Officer is going to risk their job to cause their ex some inconvenience? The Police Code of Ethics is black and white about appropriate use of Police systems.

You want academic research? You realise we are debating this in Geekzone->Off Topic and the Nazi card has already been played :P

Best you'll get from me is a couple of police staff who don't hold the code of ethics in quite the same regard you do.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10783066
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10591845
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10795461

kingjj: Part of driving a vehicle on NZ roads is that you can be stopped by Police and under go a licence/vehicle check, if you happen to be driving a vehicle that a disqualified driver has been known to use within the recent past than that is unfortunate as you are more likely than others to get checked, get used to it. Besides a flag can be removed at anytime, so this "harassment" is not guaranteed to continue.

In the past for the police to abuse that power, they'd have to park a patrol car down your street and stop you every time they left the house. This was never going to happen so we granted them that power. The ANPR technology allows that level of intrusiveness into a persons life, so it is worth reviewing what controls should be in place to protect people.

kingjj

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#636295 5-Jun-2012 20:10

hashbrown:
kingjj: Do you have any thing to base these accusations on? Any research, reviewed articles or papers? Do you really think a Police Officer is going to risk their job to cause their ex some inconvenience? The Police Code of Ethics is black and white about appropriate use of Police systems.

You want academic research? You realise we are debating this in Geekzone->Off Topic and the Nazi card has already been played :P

Best you'll get from me is a couple of police staff who don't hold the code of ethics in quite the same regard you do.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10783066
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10591845
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10795461

kingjj: Part of driving a vehicle on NZ roads is that you can be stopped by Police and under go a licence/vehicle check, if you happen to be driving a vehicle that a disqualified driver has been known to use within the recent past than that is unfortunate as you are more likely than others to get checked, get used to it. Besides a flag can be removed at anytime, so this "harassment" is not guaranteed to continue.

In the past for the police to abuse that power, they'd have to park a patrol car down your street and stop you every time they left the house. This was never going to happen so we granted them that power. The ANPR technology allows that level of intrusiveness into a persons life, so it is worth reviewing what controls should be in place to protect people.

12,000 current staff both sworn and non-sworn, plus tens of thousands of ex-staff. There will always be rogue staff in every organisation, a couple of articles prove nothing. The reason I phrased my request as such is that too often on these boards and others people make accusations with little or nothing to back them up. Three news articles (two of which are related) which don't mention the situations you raised won't have me putting on my tin foil hat just yet.

As has been mentioned by others in this thread, the technology police use and they way in which it is used is governed by legislation. Collection of data and its use is well legislated. Hopefully the benefits of ANPR technology will out weigh any possible privacy concerns that may arise.

Thanks for a good discussion by the way, I appreciate a good debate.

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