Police use of ANPR cameras

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nibba

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#103316 4-Jun-2012 11:58

I would be most interested to see what others users of this site think about the introduction of ANPR cameras into New Zealand. Obviously the Police are extolling the virtues of these devices but I'm not to sure that the criminal fraturnity & 'terrorists' that they state will be targeted will worry too much. Is this is merely yet another revenue gathering tool to catch motorists with minor offences, similar to Police hiding in vans with speed cameras.
I believe that at the moment only Wellington, Auckland & the Waikato have these cameras, are there any in the south island yet I wonder?.

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#635392 4-Jun-2012 12:04

For the benefit of those who have no idea what the OP is talking about.....

ANPR = Automatic number plate recognition

I think it is a brilliant idea for serious crimes. You could install these on the main arterials to search for stolen vehicles and wanted persons. Stolen vehicles are often used to commit serious crimes so the benefit would be huge.

Terrible idea for minor infringements (see wellingtons now decommissioned spy car).

itxtme

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#635410 4-Jun-2012 12:46

surfisup1000: For the benefit of those who have no idea what the OP is talking about.....

ANPR = Automatic number plate recognition

I think it is a brilliant idea for serious crimes. You could install these on the main arterials to search for stolen vehicles and wanted persons. Stolen vehicles are often used to commit serious crimes so the benefit would be huge.

Terrible idea for minor infringements (see wellingtons now decommissioned spy car).

And not so serious crimes. I have been hit by a stolen car who gave false details. Having third party only and not able to prove the driver/vehicle at fault = no money. I have never understood the "revenue gathering" argument. If you break the law pay up. Why should there not be hidden vans catching people who ignore the rules!?

scuwp

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#635426 4-Jun-2012 13:17

Roll out the revenue bashing brigade...is it that time again? Nothing to hide = wont have any worries, end of story.

Fact: Most major crime involves a vehicle of some kind. If this will help target and catch them then all power to the Police.

Lazy is such an ugly word, I prefer to call it selective participation

kingjj

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#635428 4-Jun-2012 13:21

I am a big fan of ANPR's and see many benefits, not just in identifying vehicles with noting flags but also in reducing radio traffic thereby improving communication and safety for front line staff and comm's centres. ANPR's are the next logical step after SMART devices (portable tablets that can currently be used to run basic searches against the Police National Intelligence Application while in the field), as they both allow field staff more autonomy and time to be proactive in the community. Check out https://www.police.govt.nz/news/release/26964.html for more info.

surfisup1000

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#635442 4-Jun-2012 13:39

itxtme:
And not so serious crimes. I have been hit by a stolen car who gave false details. Having third party only and not able to prove the driver/vehicle at fault = no money. I have never understood the "revenue gathering" argument. If you break the law pay up. Why should there not be hidden vans catching people who ignore the rules!?

How on earth do you think this is a minor infringement? Someone who steals a car and bashes into other vehicles is committing a serious crime.

surfisup1000

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#635443 4-Jun-2012 13:47

scuwp: Roll out the revenue bashing brigade...is it that time again? Nothing to hide = wont have any worries, end of story.

Fact: Most major crime involves a vehicle of some kind. If this will help target and catch them then all power to the Police.

Take this (true) scenario...

Person is driving along a narrow road (with yellow no parking lines), and stops to let a car pass as is common in Wellington.

But, the car you let through is a 'ANPR spy car ', and you are photographed and ticketed --after all, you did technically break the law by stopping on a yellow line.

This is why minor infringements should not be included.

Either you have not thought it through, or, you are happy for the minor infringements to be ticketed. I disagree with the latter.

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nickb800

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#635448 4-Jun-2012 13:59

surfisup1000:
scuwp: Roll out the revenue bashing brigade...is it that time again? Nothing to hide = wont have any worries, end of story.

Fact: Most major crime involves a vehicle of some kind. If this will help target and catch them then all power to the Police.

Take this (true) scenario...

Person is driving along a narrow road (with yellow no parking lines), and stops to let a car pass as is common in Wellington.

But, the car you let through is a 'ANPR spy car ', and you are photographed and ticketed --after all, you did technically break the law by stopping on a yellow line.

This is why minor infringements should not be included.

Either you have not thought it through, or, you are happy for the minor infringements to be ticketed. I disagree with the latter.

The difference between the ANPR vans and WCC 'spy car' (in their current form) is that the spy car is collecting evidence of infringements, whereas the ANPR is identifying infringers that have already been reported through more robust means (police report, etc).

The ANPR cars, in their current form, are only capable of dealing with a handful of offences such as speeding, unpaid fines, outstanding warrants, stolen vehicle, all of which are pretty black and white.

I think there is a bit of disagreement in the distinction of a 'minor' crime/infringement in this discussion

RunningMan

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#635452 4-Jun-2012 14:02

surfisup1000:

Take this (true) scenario...

Person is driving along a narrow road (with yellow no parking lines), and stops to let a car pass as is common in Wellington.

But, the car you let through is a 'ANPR spy car ', and you are photographed and ticketed --after all, you did technically break the law by stopping on a yellow line.

This is why minor infringements should not be included.

Either you have not thought it through, or, you are happy for the minor infringements to be ticketed. I disagree with the latter.

Presumably this is the scenario you are talking about.

1) This is not an ANPR car. It's not even similar. That is a city council vehicle with a guy sitting in it with a digital camera taking photographs of things (s)he sees.

2) The merits of that case have been heard by the court, and in their opinion, stopping for 36 seconds was not just doing the courteous thing and letting someone else go by.

sbiddle

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#635455 4-Jun-2012 14:07

These vans aren't new, they were first deployed at the end of 2010.

They didn't like being photographed though, I took some photos of one parked up taking photos and the guy packed up and drove off while I was doing this.

surfisup1000

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#635467 4-Jun-2012 14:37

RunningMan:

Presumably this is the scenario you are talking about.

1) This is not an ANPR car. It's not even similar. That is a city council vehicle with a guy sitting in it with a digital camera taking photographs of things (s)he sees.

2) The merits of that case have been heard by the court, and in their opinion, stopping for 36 seconds was not just doing the courteous thing and letting someone else go by.

Are you saying that an ANPR car could not do what the wellington spycar does? I think you are incorrect.

An ANPR car can do the same job as the wellington spy car, but vastly more efficiently. A council warden (or policeman) can drive an ANPR car around , spot an infringer, capture the plate, and dispatch an instant fine to the registered owner. The process may take seconds as opposed to ten minutes using more traditional methods.

The court is of course technically right, the lady was stopped where the law says you cannot stop. This is just one example , people were being ticketed for letting out passengers and other such minor indiscretions.

I think ANPR is a great technology , but, only if used for more serious crime than determining whether 36 seconds is too long to let someone through a one-way road.

scuwp

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#635472 4-Jun-2012 14:51

surfisup1000: Are you saying that an ANPR car could not do what the wellington spycar does? I think you are incorrect.

An ANPR car can do the same job as the wellington spy car, but vastly more efficiently. A council warden (or policeman) can drive an ANPR car around , spot an infringer, capture the plate, and dispatch an instant fine to the registered owner. The process may take seconds as opposed to ten minutes using more traditional methods.

The court is of course technically right, the lady was stopped where the law says you cannot stop. This is just one example , people were being ticketed for letting out passengers and other such minor indiscretions.

I think ANPR is a great technology , but, only if used for more serious crime than determining whether 36 seconds is too long to let someone through a one-way road.

The ones I have seen in action are deployed from a static location, so no it won't be driving around looking for parking tickets to dish out. The law also has restrictions on liability, so much so that hardly any infringements can be dealt with automatically much beyond parking issues. The fact is the ANPR will highlight a car, and alert the operator. It is still up to the Police to stop the car, collect the evidence, and proceed with prosecution if that is the appropriate outcome.

The camera's simply offer a vetting or triage process so that cars that do not get flagged for whatever the Police are looking for won't get stopped. (i.e. the innocent won't get inconvenienced for no reason, as is currently the case with checkpoints). I am all for targeting those that need it, and revenue has nothing to do with it, the Police don't get the fines anyway, so that's a mute argument.

Lazy is such an ugly word, I prefer to call it selective participation

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#635483 4-Jun-2012 15:01

I actually have no issues with the mobile camera cars the WCC had either, at the end of the day if you commit a crime, you have to pay. There were some stories where you could possibly feel sorry for people (such as the woman who pulled over on the yellow lines), but other people writing letters to the Dom Post saying they were unfairly ticketed because they stopped on the yellow lines for a couple of minutes deserve no sympathy as they broke the law.

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#635538 4-Jun-2012 16:56

surfisup1000:
RunningMan:

Presumably this is the scenario you are talking about.

1) This is not an ANPR car. It's not even similar. That is a city council vehicle with a guy sitting in it with a digital camera taking photographs of things (s)he sees.

2) The merits of that case have been heard by the court, and in their opinion, stopping for 36 seconds was not just doing the courteous thing and letting someone else go by.

Are you saying that an ANPR car could not do what the wellington spycar does? I think you are incorrect.

An ANPR car can do the same job as the wellington spy car, but vastly more efficiently. A council warden (or policeman) can drive an ANPR car around , spot an infringer, capture the plate, and dispatch an instant fine to the registered owner. The process may take seconds as opposed to ten minutes using more traditional methods.

The court is of course technically right, the lady was stopped where the law says you cannot stop. This is just one example , people were being ticketed for letting out passengers and other such minor indiscretions.

I think ANPR is a great technology , but, only if used for more serious crime than determining whether 36 seconds is too long to let someone through a one-way road.

I think you have the wrong end of the stick slightly surfisup1000, the ANPR system used by the New Zealand Police automatically reads passing number plates, if there is a flag against the number plate (stolen, sought, of interest, petrol drive off etc) than a Police unit will pull the car over. It is not being used to identify speeding vehicles or vehicles doing minor infringements (eg failing to indicate, parked on yellow lines etc). Its sole duty is automatically reading number plates checking for flags and licence/wof.

It acts in much the same way as a normal Police unit does when they do a 'mobile' query on a vehicle as they are driving, it just does it a lot more efficiently (ie without having to go via radio to a dispatcher). As pointed out already ANPR has been in service for a while now in NZ and even longer overseas, and is used along side speed camera vans and traffic police to help monitor traffic. Go to the Police website and search ANPR for more resources and news.

surfisup1000

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#635542 4-Jun-2012 17:04

sbiddle: I actually have no issues with the mobile camera cars the WCC had either, at the end of the day if you commit a crime, you have to pay. There were some stories where you could possibly feel sorry for people (such as the woman who pulled over on the yellow lines), but other people writing letters to the Dom Post saying they were unfairly ticketed because they stopped on the yellow lines for a couple of minutes deserve no sympathy as they broke the law.

I'd like to see more effort put into getting the real criminals, as opposed to the minor indiscretions that many people make on a day to day basis. The lady was breaking the law so she got a ticket, but, is that really the type of offence we want to concentrate on?

ANPR could be great for chasing down stolen vehicles. Put them on the motorways, have a cop car just down from the camera receiving the cars of interest and chasing them down.

Motor vehicle conversion is not a minor crime in my opinion. It has a huge impact on the victim (having had several cars stolen over the years).

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#635543 4-Jun-2012 17:07

I think if people knew how many times they interact with the criminal element in their day to day life without realizing they would be most surprised, that strange car driving down a suburban street, that car waiting to take your car park, the car that stops for you at a pedestrian crossing....

Criminals don't like to stand out so they steal plain inconspicuous cars to get from A to B, to case houses/cars/businesses/people etc or steal plates to hide their own vehicles, These figures can't easily hide from ANPR, if you are doing nothing wrong you have nothing to lose so its a win win

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