Why does NZ continue to refuse to let actions have consequences?

Forums › Off topic › Why does NZ continue to refuse to let actions have consequences?

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9

Networkn
32351 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1266069 23-Mar-2015 18:03

I'm getting royally sick of individuals holding up the "I'm a sportsperson" card and using it as a defence against being held accountable for their actions as any other person would.

I'm so out of touch :-)

Do you understand it's not really about sports? It's about high performance full stop! I'd be saying the exact same thing if it was any other major event such as a musical scholarship, or anything where for a sustained period of time, someone has applied themselves to a high level, probably sacrificed etc.

When sentencing is applied, it does so with guidelines about remorse, age, community engagement, depedants, unintended consequence, intent, and what the accused may or may not have done on their own to effect change such as reparation. It's designed to punish those who committed the crime and not others who were
not involved at all.

THIS is a wet bus ticket:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11421797

The ship master in charge of a 37,000 tonne fertiliser carrier ship has been fined $3000 for operating the ship while almost five times the permitted alcohol limit.

I'd bet the kids would rather do $3000 worth of community service than lose this oppurtnity to compete and I'd suggest consequences for their antics significantly less than the above.

sir1963

3260 posts

Uber Geek

Subscriber

#1266073 23-Mar-2015 18:24

jamesrt:
tigercorp: Its ridiculous to generalise that NZ society supports unaccountability.

Even your example is badly chosen as the school IS trying to enforce accountability and its only a couple of parents who are trying to avoid it.

Actually, it was the fact that the HIGH COURT JUDGE allowed an injunction to override the school is where I think it went even more wrong. The judge should have thrown it out of court.

I think the schools response should be to close the rowing program until those students have left.

My high school removed the 1st 15 rugby team from all competitions after they were caught illegally in a pub after a weekend match.

freitasm

BDFL - Memuneh
79270 posts

Uber Geek

Administrator

ID Verified

Trusted

Geekzone

Lifetime subscriber

#1266077 23-Mar-2015 18:33

jamesrt:
tigercorp: Its ridiculous to generalise that NZ society supports unaccountability.

Even your example is badly chosen as the school IS trying to enforce accountability and its only a couple of parents who are trying to avoid it.

Actually, it was the fact that the HIGH COURT JUDGE allowed an injunction to override the school is where I think it went even more wrong. The judge should have thrown it out of court.

And over the phone?

freitasm

BDFL - Memuneh
79270 posts

Uber Geek

Administrator

ID Verified

Trusted

Geekzone

Lifetime subscriber

#1266079 23-Mar-2015 18:37

networkn: Really? Probably first offence, no intent, nobody physically harmed. The consequences will have well exceeded the harm, and they would have to live with that for the rest of their lives, for a mistake made at 16.

No-one died. A severe reprimand, loss of privileges, some agreed community service and an education program would do far more good than what you are proposing.

"No intent"? No intent means "accident". I doubt it was "accidental".

tdgeek

29746 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1266098 23-Mar-2015 19:17

MikeAqua: Yes I would. They should have 'been a team', at the airport and not let their team mates get on the conveyor.

I am willing to bet at least one of their team mates stood by and watched/encouraged.

networkn:
MikeAqua: OK so the parents got their court injunction. The conveyor cowboys get to go to Maadi Cup with their team mates.

But surely the coach chooses who rows on the day. Perhaps these two boys can be demoted to the reserves?

Well if they are the stronger team members, would you punish an entire team for it ?

I think the punishment needs to be strictly limited to those kids who did the stupid thing.

Other team members encouraged the incident. Thats material, for those that support not damaging the team

tdgeek

29746 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1266100 23-Mar-2015 19:19

Sideface:
meesham: We're not talking about prison here, we're talking about a team of athletes and the possibility that the team will miss out on the privilege of representing their school in a sporting event due to the stupid actions of a couple of members of the team.

At another level, political parties can lose office "due to the stupid actions of a couple of members of the team".
Even teflon-coated politicians sometimes face the consequences of their actions (but not often enough, in my opinion).

As do rugger players for staying out against team rules. Can't recall what Dagg's form was like at the time

tdgeek

29746 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1266110 23-Mar-2015 19:22

networkn:
Jeeves: Because we all know that 16 year old's are the best people to judge consequences to their actions. Am I right?
That's why we give them privileges such as being able to vote, watch pornography, smoke, drink, join the army. Oh that's right, we don't, because they are scientifically incapable of making the rational consequential judgement calls on par of that of the adults that are making the 'lock em up and throw the key' type comments.

Hillary would have struggled to mount the horses that some people in this thread are sitting a'top.

What the parent's did was a bit extreme - however I am with networkn in that the punishment outweighed the crime. Let them compete and deal with their actions later - there is a myriad of punishments available.

What I see from my own unscientific polling of office and clients I have discussed this with:

1) Parents tend to side with the "punishment shouldn't automatically stop them competing, and certainly shouldn't affect kids who had no part in it"
2) People with no kids generally seem to say "lock em up throw away the key"

I think some of us here have forgotten the understanding we received and the opportunities we were offered to make mistakes and get appropriate ramifications.

I as a teenager would have been no more able to physically stop my team mates from jumping on a carosel, and neither should I have been required to, to avoid punishment. At the end of the day, if the other kids had jumped on them to stop it, then there would assault charges and violence claims being made.

They didn't rape, murder, deface, assault or steal, the consequences need to be inline with the crime.

But other team members encouraged it, the parents even said they should also be punished. I agree with your comments, but as it wasn't just these two kids, that changes everything.

Samsung

Shop now on Samsung phones, tablets, TVs and more (affiliate link).

nickb800

2716 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#1266144 23-Mar-2015 19:48

I think the Bedes context is relevant here - last year the Bede's Maadi cup team lit tennis balls and threw them, and lit a road on fire with their initials and a knob. Imagine the drilling this team would have had at the start of this season as a result of that. Isn't that enough warning to everyone that if anyone plays up, the team looses? I'd call that thin ice, and treat it as such

crichton

111 posts

Master Geek

#1266236 23-Mar-2015 20:57

It seems to me that Airport Security or the Police should have arrested them and held them pending resolution. In that case the High Court judge would hardly have been able to order their release to let them go rowing.
Any interference with airport security should carry heavy punishment - there is no room for clowning or joking around airports. I suspect the outcome would have been different if they had been wearing black and carrying some sort of flag.

Batman

Mad Scientist
29763 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1266238 23-Mar-2015 20:59

I am astounded that the blame is shifted to non supervision by the coach, and the peers who provided pressure ... !

6FIEND

774 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

#1266416 24-Mar-2015 08:54

networkn:

I'm getting royally sick of individuals holding up the "I'm a sportsperson" card and using it as a defence against being held accountable for their actions as any other person would.

I'm so out of touch :-)

Do you understand it's not really about sports? It's about high performance full stop! I'd be saying the exact same thing if it was any other major event such as a musical scholarship, or anything where for a sustained period of time, someone has applied themselves to a high level, probably sacrificed etc.

It seems that you've missed my point.

Frankly, I don't give a d@mn whether or not it has anything to do with sport, choir practice, running a small business, or anything else that requires "for a sustained period of time, someone has applied themselves to a high level, probably sacrificed etc."

My point is that it should be incumbent on the individual to ensure that they do not put their reward, performance, profit, whatever at risk by acting responsibly and within the law. It should NOT be incumbent of the person disciplining them to ensure that their punishment doesn't disadvantage them. (Even just typing that out makes me shake my head at the ridiculousness of it!)

It just so happens that "sportspeople" seem to have the most "press" reporting incidences of this "You can't punish me, I'm too important for that" attitude. (Along with politicians of course ;-) )

Again, we seem to have transitioned from:

"My vocation is dependant on my having a clean record, so I will stay out of trouble"

...to

"My vocation is dependant on my having a clean record, so you need to grant me special treatment"

EDITED to add: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/03/23/rod-stewart-son-sean-arrested-baggage-carousel_n_6922112.html

MikeB4

18435 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

#1266418 24-Mar-2015 08:57

I wonder what will happen because of this*cough* "prank"?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/67484595/intruders-caught-on-cathedral-cameras

Handsomedan

7291 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

Subscriber

#1266422 24-Mar-2015 09:00

KiwiNZ: I wonder what will happen because of this*cough* "prank"?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/67484595/intruders-caught-on-cathedral-cameras

My guess would be prosecution and fines, in accordance with the law.

Unless one of them is a lawyer and takes out a high court injunction.

Handsome Dan Has Spoken.
Handsome Dan needs to stop adding three dots to every sentence...

Handsome Dan does not currently have a side hustle as the mascot for Yale

*Gladly accepting donations...

tdgeek

29746 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1266427 24-Mar-2015 09:04

6FIEND:
networkn:

I'm getting royally sick of individuals holding up the "I'm a sportsperson" card and using it as a defence against being held accountable for their actions as any other person would.

I'm so out of touch :-)

Do you understand it's not really about sports? It's about high performance full stop! I'd be saying the exact same thing if it was any other major event such as a musical scholarship, or anything where for a sustained period of time, someone has applied themselves to a high level, probably sacrificed etc.

It seems that you've missed my point.

Frankly, I don't give a d@mn whether or not it has anything to do with sport, choir practice, running a small business, or anything else that requires "for a sustained period of time, someone has applied themselves to a high level, probably sacrificed etc."

My point is that it should be incumbent on the individual to ensure that they do not put their reward, performance, profit, whatever at risk by acting responsibly and within the law. It should NOT be incumbent of the person disciplining them to ensure that their punishment doesn't disadvantage them. (Even just typing that out makes me shake my head at the ridiculousness of it!)

It just so happens that "sportspeople" seem to have the most "press" reporting incidences of this "You can't punish me, I'm too important for that" attitude. (Along with politicians of course ;-) )

Again, we seem to have transitioned from:

"My vocation is dependant on my having a clean record, so I will stay out of trouble"

...to

"My vocation is dependant on my having a clean record, so you need to grant me special treatment"

You'd have to ask if this goes against other laws as this is discriminatory against non sportsmen, non special citizens. The whole team or most of the team deserve punishment as other team members participated in encouraging these two. It deserved a Dagg response, then that will add a lesson for later pupils at the school.

networkn

Networkn
32351 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1266469 24-Mar-2015 09:49

A little more information has come out. Timing was everything, the only option available to the parents who disagreed with the punishment was to allow their kids to be disqualified, or get a high court injunction, due to the timing.

I don't think in their situation I would have gone high court, but I can understand it somewhat. There was no time to convene a proper investigation (nor was one attempted), only 2 kids from a probably 8 were punished despite encouraging, recording etc by the others.

I am a little torn as to what the proper outcome should have been but probably still fall on the side that the punishment outweighed the crime. The AUTHORITIES didn't press charges, as is their right, because they deemed it outside of a reasonable punishment for the crime committed.

I also don't think it's reasonable to assume the parents are "bad" parents, who won't insist on proper punishment for their kids, time will soon tell that I expect.

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9