What is the point of Semble?

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#1338562 7-Jul-2015 14:34

Yabanize:
roobarb:
sbiddle: Semble can't emulate EFTPOS. Why? Because EFTPOS doesn't have a NFC solution.

You would need a very very thin phone with a magstripe on it....

Although if you have a Visa Debit card with a chip on it, you can use Eftpos (your check or savings account) by inserting the card (using the chip) and not using the mag stripe

But this is still a Visa solution (and likewise there is a MasterCard debit solution).

From a technical perspective adding NFC to "EFTPOS" (ie your cheque/savings) is actually very simple. The business rules around this however are a major change, particularly when you start to deal with issues with as fraud liability and who should absorb this, particularly as there are no interchange fee to essentially absorb this from. I don't know what the current level of CC fraud is in NZ but if you're to assume we're similar to Australian we'll be sitting at around 0.5%

coffeebaron

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#1338579 7-Jul-2015 14:52

sbiddle:
Yabanize:
roobarb:
sbiddle: Semble can't emulate EFTPOS. Why? Because EFTPOS doesn't have a NFC solution.

You would need a very very thin phone with a magstripe on it....

Although if you have a Visa Debit card with a chip on it, you can use Eftpos (your check or savings account) by inserting the card (using the chip) and not using the mag stripe

But this is still a Visa solution (and likewise there is a MasterCard debit solution).

From a technical perspective adding NFC to "EFTPOS" (ie your cheque/savings) is actually very simple. The business rules around this however are a major change, particularly when you start to deal with issues with as fraud liability and who should absorb this, particularly as there are no interchange fee to essentially absorb this from. I don't know what the current level of CC fraud is in NZ but if you're to assume we're similar to Australian we'll be sitting at around 0.5%

Moving forward, this needs to happen. Why should shop owners have to pay 2-5% merchant fees to have contact payment facility. This will only reach mass market once there is an EFTPOS (not VISA debit) NFC option. I hope the banks are seriously looking at solutions to provide this.

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#1338584 7-Jul-2015 14:56

freitasm: Going back to the question the OP posted, imagine you're in 1950 and Diners Club send you a credit card. Instead of asking "What is the point of this card, I can't use it anywhere" ask yourself "Where can I shop now to make it easier for myself, seeing this is so handy?"

Change your paradigm...

I can see your point but like the Diners Club card in 1950 I still end up carrying cash and I can't see anything that Semble can do (for credit cards, not Snapper) that I can't do with the physical card that I have to carry anyway.

Now if we could just get Visa and MasterCard to make the latest readers mandatory then we could use the semble card worldwide and wouldn't need to carry a physical card.

I also find it interesting that a lot of the newest phones made for the Chinese domestic market have dropped NFC as a feature.

graemeh

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#1338586 7-Jul-2015 14:58

sbiddle:
Yabanize:
roobarb:
sbiddle: Semble can't emulate EFTPOS. Why? Because EFTPOS doesn't have a NFC solution.

You would need a very very thin phone with a magstripe on it....

Although if you have a Visa Debit card with a chip on it, you can use Eftpos (your check or savings account) by inserting the card (using the chip) and not using the mag stripe

But this is still a Visa solution (and likewise there is a MasterCard debit solution).

From a technical perspective adding NFC to "EFTPOS" (ie your cheque/savings) is actually very simple. The business rules around this however are a major change, particularly when you start to deal with issues with as fraud liability and who should absorb this, particularly as there are no interchange fee to essentially absorb this from. I don't know what the current level of CC fraud is in NZ but if you're to assume we're similar to Australian we'll be sitting at around 0.5%

Surely the fraud risk can be dealt with by making a PIN mandatory on all "EFTPOS" transactions, it would still be quicker than fiddling about inserting the card into the machine.

sbiddle

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#1338588 7-Jul-2015 15:00

graemeh:
sbiddle:
Yabanize:
roobarb:
sbiddle: Semble can't emulate EFTPOS. Why? Because EFTPOS doesn't have a NFC solution.

You would need a very very thin phone with a magstripe on it....

Although if you have a Visa Debit card with a chip on it, you can use Eftpos (your check or savings account) by inserting the card (using the chip) and not using the mag stripe

But this is still a Visa solution (and likewise there is a MasterCard debit solution).

From a technical perspective adding NFC to "EFTPOS" (ie your cheque/savings) is actually very simple. The business rules around this however are a major change, particularly when you start to deal with issues with as fraud liability and who should absorb this, particularly as there are no interchange fee to essentially absorb this from. I don't know what the current level of CC fraud is in NZ but if you're to assume we're similar to Australian we'll be sitting at around 0.5%

Surely the fraud risk can be dealt with by making a PIN mandatory on all "EFTPOS" transactions, it would still be quicker than fiddling about inserting the card into the machine.

It could be if the solution followed EMV standards - this can be done now on a per transaction basis even for NFC transactions.

mdf

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#1338605 7-Jul-2015 15:24

Whether there's a real point to it or not, it's new cool technology and therefore I want it.

BUT

I suspect I know the answer to this, but if you don't ask you won't know.

Is there any way of getting Semble without an officially supported phone? I have a Nexus 5, and I think that it is lacking something required for Semble (or even Snapper) to work. Is there any way of adding this something via a custom ROM or similar?

I bank with Kiwibank and BNZ, so as far as I know, I can't even go the low tech option of sticking a sticker somewhere (probably somewhere inconvenient that I'll regret within a few days).

I've also ordered a Nymi (which I really hope won't turn out to be vaporware). They're trialling payments in Canada. Any way of figuring our whether it will be supported here?

roobarb

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#1338623 7-Jul-2015 15:42

mdf: I have a Nexus 5, and I think that it is lacking something required for Semble (or even Snapper) to work.

Nexus devices don't support Single-Wire-Protocol (SWP) which is the link between the NFC SIM and the antenna amplifier. It's a hardware limitation that software can't fix.

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#1338635 7-Jul-2015 16:01

The Nexus does fully support HCE which is what Westpac and ANZ will launch in coming months.

Ultimately you'd expect to see Semble going down the same path and supporting HCE. It has some significant advantages, but does have some disadvantages.

dylanp

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#1338641 7-Jul-2015 16:08

Yabanize:Well, a benefit of them is at least in Christchurch is it includes a few perks that are much better than if you paid with Cash
For example, If you pay with cash you get one free transfer to use within the next 2 hours
...
Metrocard also limits your spend, Once you've spent $5 in a day, the rest of the day is free. ...

I'm very certain it could be done. your credit card number becomes the identifier that your trips are logged against, so it should follow the same rules.

sonyxperiageek

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#1338648 7-Jul-2015 16:19

reven: you will hopefully soon be able to use a smartwatch to pay. that will be awesome, no need to get wallet/phone out of pocket.

If Semble could make an app for Smart watches, the Sony SmartWatch 3 has NFC built in!

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Yabanize

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#1338666 7-Jul-2015 16:44

VodafoneDylan:
Yabanize:Well, a benefit of them is at least in Christchurch is it includes a few perks that are much better than if you paid with Cash
For example, If you pay with cash you get one free transfer to use within the next 2 hours
...
Metrocard also limits your spend, Once you've spent $5 in a day, the rest of the day is free. ...

I'm very certain it could be done. your credit card number becomes the identifier that your trips are logged against, so it should follow the same rules.

It currently does this by storing the data on the card itself, the machines are offline, not constantly connected to the central server, but they do sync every so often via wifi i believe when they are at depots etc. I also believe they have cellular connection by Vodafone, not sure what it's used for though.

This video from Kiwicon explains it and security issues that were found

graemeh

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#1338668 7-Jul-2015 16:44

VodafoneDylan:
Yabanize:Well, a benefit of them is at least in Christchurch is it includes a few perks that are much better than if you paid with Cash
For example, If you pay with cash you get one free transfer to use within the next 2 hours
...
Metrocard also limits your spend, Once you've spent $5 in a day, the rest of the day is free. ...

I'm very certain it could be done. your credit card number becomes the identifier that your trips are logged against, so it should follow the same rules.

The hard part would seem to be the $5 limit, with a dedicated public transport card it is easy as they can write the amount spent today back to the card allow each terminal to operate off-line.

I doubt you could do this to a credit card so you either need the terminal to be on-line all the time, which is expensive and will slow down your transaction times or you store all the transactions and impose the $5 limit in a back end system. Now that I write this I think putting the limit in the back end system that passes the card transactions through to the bank would be relatively easy to do.

sbiddle

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#1338817 7-Jul-2015 18:38

graemeh:
The hard part would seem to be the $5 limit, with a dedicated public transport card it is easy as they can write the amount spent today back to the card allow each terminal to operate off-line.

I doubt you could do this to a credit card so you either need the terminal to be on-line all the time, which is expensive and will slow down your transaction times or you store all the transactions and impose the $5 limit in a back end system. Now that I write this I think putting the limit in the back end system that passes the card transactions through to the bank would be relatively easy to do.

It's super easy with a credit card and it works fine for TfL across all of London's public transport - you simply bill usage the following day once all data is downloaded from the buses overnight (data is only real time at tube/DLR etc which have realtime connectivity). This allows credit cards to have daily and weekly usage limits applied. Last I heard credit card usage there is now well over 25%, people are dumping their Oyster cards because many don't need the extra card any longer.

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#1338819 7-Jul-2015 18:47

I'm looking forward to the day I can go out and all I will need to carry is my phone, especially a night out on the town :)

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#1338856 7-Jul-2015 19:27

coffeebaron:
sbiddle:
Yabanize:
roobarb:
sbiddle: Semble can't emulate EFTPOS. Why? Because EFTPOS doesn't have a NFC solution.

You would need a very very thin phone with a magstripe on it....

Although if you have a Visa Debit card with a chip on it, you can use Eftpos (your check or savings account) by inserting the card (using the chip) and not using the mag stripe

But this is still a Visa solution (and likewise there is a MasterCard debit solution).

From a technical perspective adding NFC to "EFTPOS" (ie your cheque/savings) is actually very simple. The business rules around this however are a major change, particularly when you start to deal with issues with as fraud liability and who should absorb this, particularly as there are no interchange fee to essentially absorb this from. I don't know what the current level of CC fraud is in NZ but if you're to assume we're similar to Australian we'll be sitting at around 0.5%

Moving forward, this needs to happen. Why should shop owners have to pay 2-5% merchant fees to have contact payment facility. This will only reach mass market once there is an EFTPOS (not VISA debit) NFC option. I hope the banks are seriously looking at solutions to provide this.

Do people really still use EFTPOS cards? About time they went in the bin - they are as much use as a chocolate fireguard if you set foot outside NZ. In fact I think NZ might be one of few - if not the only - place where some sort of networked card system has not replaced a homespun version.

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