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Fred99
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  #1661263 31-Oct-2016 10:32
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MikeB4:

 

Rikkitic:

 

I do not understand the objections to this idea. Having the government fund a broadcaster does not have to inevitably mean unwarranted political interference in the programming. There are ways to defend against that. Other countries, most notably the Netherlands, manage it quite well. Why are we so hopeless that we can't do that too?

 

The argument for government-funded public service broadcasting in the first place is the same as the argument for public transport, drinking water, libraries, and other essential services. The capitalist free enterprise competitive market model works well for many things, but it doesn't work well for some things. Not every value can be reduced to dollars and cents. With free enterprise broadcasting, you get the kind of lowest common denominator crap that currently pollutes our airwaves. Quality content is unfortunately not economic in this environment and cannot compete with the rubbish. To survive it needs to be supported by other means. It is accepted that people pay taxes to pay for essential services provided by the government that would not be economic otherwise. My argument is just that public broadcasting should be included as one of these essential services. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Providing water and waste water are utilities and a government function but can be and should be contracted. TV, Radio stations, transport are businesses and not a core function of government.

 

Remember you may not like the current media offerings but you are NOT all, the market research etc these organisations do will show what the majority wants. 

 

 

 

 

I couldn't disagree more.  Water and waste services are prime examples of things which could be privatised, in the same way electricity and telecommunications have been.  Even prison services.

 

You're just picking what you do/don't want to define as core government services/business based on your political bias.

 

My political bias - combined with observation - is that the private model for sole provision of all news services is an abject failure. As the newspapers have devolved into magazine gossip merchants and providers of advertorial services for business interests, there's been nothing to fill the void, except perhaps renewed interest in Radio NZ - by the few of us left apparently - who actually do want to read or hear real local news.  The alternative seems to be screaming shock-jocks interspersed by advertisements for quack remedies made out of shark fins or magnets - to fix what else is wrong with us once we've made ourselves happier by bashing everybody we don't agree with. 

 

TV is dead/dying, NZ is too small to run a "BBC", but there is a definite need for a state broadcaster in some form.

 

 

 

Market research is also utter BS in that context.  Newspapers / Media isn't toilet paper, where customer feedback about softness should influence what you produce.




frankv
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  #1661274 31-Oct-2016 10:39
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MikeB4:

 

Rikkitic:

 

Good article. What it says is also pretty much what I believe, and I fully support the conclusion. We need a proper public TV broadcaster here, not another revenue-driven dumbed down spewer of fluff.

 

 

If you mean a state run broadcaster then no thanks. It is not the role of government to run businesses.

 

 

It shouldn't be a business. It *should* be an information service.

 

 


jmh

jmh
458 posts

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  #1661275 31-Oct-2016 10:41
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It's not a case of either/or it's a question of balance.  If a disaster happened in the UK, e.g. terrorist attack, I would watch 2 news reports - the BBC and Sky.  The BBC because I know that the facts have been checked and confirmed, Sky because they will be first with the latest news.  Sky, as a private broadcaster, will take a risk and run a story before it's been checked - sometimes they get it wrong, but for ratings, they chance it.  The BBC, can't chance it like this. So the viewer benefits from having up-to-date stories balanced with the more reliable but slower news.  The market as a whole benefits from having both public and private sector involved.

 

There is a place for both.  The BBC is accountable to government and taxpayers.  Because large numbers of citizens pay licence fees, their opinions matter over and above how much they will buy.  That means that demographics who are not easily parted from their money are included in programming decisions, while private media organisations focused on profits hone in on the profitable and malleable markets.  Again, having both public and private operating in a market can lead to win-win results for the populus with better services for wider demographics.  

 

The either/or 'socialism is evil' argument is propaganda pushed out by big business to direct taxpayer dollars to private corporations on the assumption that they can spend the money better.  History doesn't show this.




MikeB4
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  #1661281 31-Oct-2016 10:49
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Fred99:

 

 

 

 

 

I couldn't disagree more.  Water and waste services are prime examples of things which could be privatised, in the same way electricity and telecommunications have been.  Even prison services.

 

You're just picking what you do/don't want to define as core government services/business based on your political bias.

 

My political bias - combined with observation - is that the private model for sole provision of all news services is an abject failure. As the newspapers have devolved into magazine gossip merchants and providers of advertorial services for business interests, there's been nothing to fill the void, except perhaps renewed interest in Radio NZ - by the few of us left apparently - who actually do want to read or hear real local news.  The alternative seems to be screaming shock-jocks interspersed by advertisements for quack remedies made out of shark fins or magnets - to fix what else is wrong with us once we've made ourselves happier by bashing everybody we don't agree with. 

 

TV is dead/dying, NZ is too small to run a "BBC", but there is a definite need for a state broadcaster in some form.

 

 

 

Market research is also utter BS in that context.  Newspapers / Media isn't toilet paper, where customer feedback about softness should influence what you produce.

 

 

 

 

Remember this bit "Providing water and waste water are utilities and a government function but can be and should be contracted". in other words privatised.

 

How is TV dying? we still have broadcast TV, we have streaming TV. It is changing not dying. Government does core health, welfare, core education, defence, foreign affairs, policing, border control and justice/law. It provides leadership and facilitates change and innovation. Government does not do well running business and should be well out of it. TV, news media are businesses the need profits, those profits are generated by proving what the majority wants and are willing to pay for. If no one pays for it then it dies.

 

 


frankv
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  #1661282 31-Oct-2016 10:50
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MikeB4:

 

Remember you may not like the current media offerings but you are NOT all, the market research etc these organisations do will show what the majority wants. 

 

 

I don't think so. I think that it's driven by ratings. People are provided with a menu of Kardashians, Hogans Heroes, Shortland St, Survivor, cookery, home improvement, British real estate, and 5 American sitcoms. Whichever least crappy show people watch wins.

 

 

 

 


MikeB4
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  #1661288 31-Oct-2016 10:57
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frankv:

 

MikeB4:

 

Remember you may not like the current media offerings but you are NOT all, the market research etc these organisations do will show what the majority wants. 

 

 

I don't think so. I think that it's driven by ratings. People are provided with a menu of Kardashians, Hogans Heroes, Shortland St, Survivor, cookery, home improvement, British real estate, and 5 American sitcoms. Whichever least crappy show people watch wins.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ratings show what the majority wants. That's life.


frankv
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  #1661289 31-Oct-2016 10:58
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MikeB4:

 

Government does not do well running business

 

 

I agree with this bit. But the big question is "WHY?".

 

Why *can't* the Govt run a prison for the same price as Serco? Especially since Serco takes a slice out of the income for its owners. Why can't the Govt run telecomms as well as Spark, Chorus, etc and spend the millions of dollars in profits in NZ?

 

It all appears to me to be an abject failure of the higher echelons of Public Service management.

 

 


 
 
 

Move to New Zealand's best fibre broadband service (affiliate link). Free setup code: R587125ERQ6VE. Note that to use Quic Broadband you must be comfortable with configuring your own router.
jonathan18
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  #1661292 31-Oct-2016 10:59
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While I'm aware that Stuff-knocking is seemingly regarded as a necessary requirement for all of those posting on Geekzone, I think that is a dangerous generalisation; the same can be said in regards to the Herald.

 

The reality is that both companies have some excellent journalists working for them producing some excellent content. The problem is finding that content can be tricky, as we know what kind of cr@p clickbait both dominate their front pages with. Russell Brown had an interesting post last month on the deterioration of the Herald's site (eg, the increasing use of Daily Mail content).

 

It was Stuff that took on most of the 3rd Degree team to establish the Circuit team, which have been given the resources and opportunity to produce long-form investigative reports, such as this one on racism in the NZ justice system (including a 24 minute video). What really surprises me is that Stuff appears to have made no effort to provide this team with a sub-site on Stuff, where all their content can easily be found. Or to even provide a central spot where users can find all longer-form reports on the site.

 

I think the launch and growth of The Spinoff has been another positive development in local journalism (Duncan Grieve's obsession with the greatness of Real Housewives of Akld aside!).

 

Then there's Pundit, another good site for current affairs and (well-argued) opinion.

 

And blog sites like Public Address featuring blogs such as Hard News.

 

I could go on, but I've made my point... Sure, mainstream news is rubbish and just getting worse; but there are lots of alternatives out there - including numerous NZ sites from which you can get your fix.


Fred99
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  #1661301 31-Oct-2016 11:15
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MikeB4:

 

Government does core health, welfare, core education, defence, foreign affairs, policing, border control and justice/law. It provides leadership and facilitates change and innovation. Government does not do well running business and should be well out of it. TV, news media are businesses the need profits, those profits are generated by proving what the majority wants and are willing to pay for. If no one pays for it then it dies.

 

 

 

 

 

All of those core services can be at least partly privatised - many are already.  I have no doubt that is there's no public (state-owned) media, then commercial bias in "for profit" media will argue the case that they should be privatised. It's an ideological position.  

 

The town crier wasn't a "business".

 

The popularity of conspiracy theory and denialism plaguing the planet can be blamed on "editorial - sponsored by Acme Corp".


MikeB4
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  #1661306 31-Oct-2016 11:24
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Fred99:

 

MikeB4:

 

Government does core health, welfare, core education, defence, foreign affairs, policing, border control and justice/law. It provides leadership and facilitates change and innovation. Government does not do well running business and should be well out of it. TV, news media are businesses the need profits, those profits are generated by proving what the majority wants and are willing to pay for. If no one pays for it then it dies.

 

 

 

 

 

All of those core services can be at least partly privatised - many are already.  I have no doubt that is there's no public (state-owned) media, then commercial bias in "for profit" media will argue the case that they should be privatised. It's an ideological position.  

 

The town crier wasn't a "business".

 

The popularity of conspiracy theory and denialism plaguing the planet can be blamed on "editorial - sponsored by Acme Corp".

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I am not into conspiracy theories.


Fred99
13684 posts

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  #1661309 31-Oct-2016 11:28
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frankv:

 

MikeB4:

 

Government does not do well running business

 

 

I agree with this bit. But the big question is "WHY?".

 

Why *can't* the Govt run a prison for the same price as Serco? Especially since Serco takes a slice out of the income for its owners. Why can't the Govt run telecomms as well as Spark, Chorus, etc and spend the millions of dollars in profits in NZ?

 

It all appears to me to be an abject failure of the higher echelons of Public Service management.

 

 

 

 

 

 

We've been told that government doesn't do well running business.  That is also in part an ideological position.  One of the reasons that it's accepted as fact - without question - is that over the past 30 years of privatisation, the "good" businesses that were owned by government were the easiest to sell at the highest price.  Attrition by privatisation leaves government with a portfolio of remaining businesses that always were going to be low value, loss making dogs, so an assumption is made that government must be incompetent running business.


Fred99
13684 posts

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  #1661310 31-Oct-2016 11:29
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MikeB4:

 

Fred99:

 

MikeB4:

 

Government does core health, welfare, core education, defence, foreign affairs, policing, border control and justice/law. It provides leadership and facilitates change and innovation. Government does not do well running business and should be well out of it. TV, news media are businesses the need profits, those profits are generated by proving what the majority wants and are willing to pay for. If no one pays for it then it dies.

 

 

 

 

 

All of those core services can be at least partly privatised - many are already.  I have no doubt that is there's no public (state-owned) media, then commercial bias in "for profit" media will argue the case that they should be privatised. It's an ideological position.  

 

The town crier wasn't a "business".

 

The popularity of conspiracy theory and denialism plaguing the planet can be blamed on "editorial - sponsored by Acme Corp".

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I am not into conspiracy theories.

 

 

 

 

Did I suggest you were?


Rikkitic
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  #1661323 31-Oct-2016 11:47
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I think there is a separate philosophical argument that can be made here. It is known that junk food is addictive. Someone who is addicted will not enjoy eating healthy alternatives as much as the crap, even if the crap does make them feel bloated and listless.

 

The fact that more people want to watch the Kardashians or Survivor or the umpteenth cooking competition rather than serious investigative journalism or a documentary that informs, does not reduce the value or importance of the journalism or documentary. It just indicates that viewers have developed bad eating habits.

 

What is the role of government in a democracy? Hopefully it is more than just balancing the budget and building essential infrastructure. I think a government that genuinely cares about democratic values, whatever its political persuasion, has a fundamental responsibility to inform and uplift the populace. It has a duty to show those addicted to crap that there are better alternatives. Broadcasting, whether by traditional TV or by Internet, is a wonderful invention. It has unlimited potential to feed the soul and raise the spirit. There is a place for undemanding entertainment, but there must also be a place for content that makes people want to be better than they are. If the dumbing down process continues unabated, ultimately there will be no democratic values left to defend. This is why I passionately believe that quality public broadcasting is an essential component of any enlightened society.





Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

 


 


mattwnz

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  #1661415 31-Oct-2016 14:05
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Fred99:

 

 

 

 

 

We've been told that government doesn't do well running business.  That is also in part an ideological position.  One of the reasons that it's accepted as fact - without question - is that over the past 30 years of privatisation, the "good" businesses that were owned by government were the easiest to sell at the highest price.  Attrition by privatisation leaves government with a portfolio of remaining businesses that always were going to be low value, loss making dogs, so an assumption is made that government must be incompetent running business.

 

 

 

 

That's more of a justification than anything, to contract them out. However running things centrally from government or council can have big cost benefits to tax and rate payer. For example, our local council decided to stop providing ratepayer funded rubbish recycling. Their costings for having it done by council contractors however were far cheaper, than if everyone employed a private contractor to pick up their recycling. So as a result, hardly anyone now recycles, as you have to pay a lot more on top of normal rubbish collection, when all recycling can just go in the normal bin anyway. When things are run privately as a business, you have a lot more middle men, and CEOs, which all need their CEO level of pay, and you also have shareholders who will want a good return. So I am not sure contracting out is always the best solution.


alasta
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  #1661693 31-Oct-2016 20:22
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I agree that the government should not be running businesses, hence why TVNZ should be privatised. However Radio NZ should not be privatised because it is a public service, not a business. 

 

It's an important distinction that a lot of people seem to have difficulty making.


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