Tipping? Please no!

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#1786662 23-May-2017 13:21

jonathan18:

I'll certainly not be encouraging my kids, when they get to that age, to take on such jobs. To me that's not teaching my kids the value of money, but rather teaching them it's ok to be screwed by The Man. Better that they put that time into something more valuable and rewarding in other ways.

I agree with your attitude - however you are fortunate to be in the position where you can support your children in that way. It's important to remember that not everyone can afford to do the same. At that age, some kids will consider it a fair trade to be screwed by "the man" in order to save enough for a ticket to the school ball or whatever.

Wiggum

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#1786710 23-May-2017 13:27

jonathan18:

Wiggum:

Some students are exceptionally cheap already. My oldest girl, 13, does a paper run. She does not make much money, and what she gets is far less than the minimum wage per hour. Some may say that those companies are abusing the system. I look at it another way, its teaching my daughter the value of money, and how to work for it. Should these companies be forced into paying the minimum wage for "these kind of jobs" then "these kind of jobs" will go away.

I'll certainly not be encouraging my kids, when they get to that age, to take on such jobs. To me that's not teaching my kids the value of money, but rather teaching them it's ok to be screwed by The Man. Better that they put that time into something more valuable and rewarding in other ways.

I'd suggest this seems to be an ever-increasing view amongst parents (or indeed kids) as paper and flyer distribution companies become tighter and tighter in what they pay (or increase the amount of work for the same pay), as nearly every single person I see delivering leaflets or the local freebie papers is an adult, I'd imagine in many cases aiming to supplement their benefit. While it'll be unfortunate if these guys lost their job, in principle I'd have no problem with such companies being forced to pay the minimum wage.

Well they are already forced to pay the minimum wage. The law states that there is no minimum wage for employees under the age of 16. Those adults will probably already be getting minimum wage.

I see nothing wrong with the way it is for paper runs etc.. It gets my daughter out of the house once a week, and she is learning how to save and earn an honest living one day. So what if an adult doing the same job gets paid a little more.

Coil

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#1786736 23-May-2017 13:50

Tipping, no. Not at all. Something I don't do.

I am a firm believer you pay for what you get. If something is $5 it is $5, it is not $5 plus a tip you have to pay.
My boss doesn't tip me for staying behind an hour after work or arriving early or dealing with the huge loads of crap anyone else in my company cant deal with.

Its a broken economy where the employers cant afford to keep their staff paid and the doors open from selling a product for its RRP.

If I wanted to tip someone, I would bring them a box of beer. And it should stay that way!

frankv

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#1786744 23-May-2017 13:57

Wiggum:

I look at it another way, its teaching my daughter the value of money, and how to work for it.

What I learnt from doing paper runs is that there are lots of people out there who are only too happy to exploit children.

gedc

355 posts

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#1786758 23-May-2017 14:02

Having just returned from a 3 week family holiday in the USA I can state I have mixed feelings about tipping. I'm a bit of a " when in rome, do as the romans do" type of guy so was happy to fit into the tipping culture prevalent in every city and location we visited. Every receipt comes loaded with lots of friendly advice about what to give for good service and they go so far as to break it down into % and $ values. Generally this went from 18% through 20% and upto 22%.

Only once did I leave a 'low' tip of 10% as the service was a bit off - turned out it was her 2nd night on the job.

I did notice a marked difference in attentiveness in eating out in the USA compared to NZ. Servers were rushing around in most places, constantly refilling soft drinks ( pay once - multiple refills), checking on food quality, letting us know when next course is arriving etc etc. They seemed flat out in most restaurants we visited - and were either shuttling food, drinks or chasing the kitchen for something. While I agree it's artificial and they probably couldn't give a hoot about our day or activities, every one of them made you feel welcome, wanted and attended to. It's all part of the show I guess.

Now, I'm not saying that NZ has much to learn or should change, but it is very much a different experience here and I'm not sure if it's a cultural thing or something else that tipping won't change. I did a fair bit of reading in the USA while sitting in airports and found some excellent articles ( USA written ) about the tipping culture and how it's grown into something that is becoming uncontrollable and also unwanted. There is a big push for and some new restaurants add the cost to the food and indicate you don't need to tip the staff. A number of career waiters were interviewed and while they are not the norm, all of them brought in over $100K USD a year from waiting on tables…EH ?!???!

No doubt, the burger joint servers at the other end balance out the equation somewhat. Tipping does seem to be the norm rather than the exception. Even down to simple things such as buying a coffee or a beer - 80% of the people left a dollar per drink or thereabouts. It's so ingrained we saw people being challenged post meal when they left cash but not a tip. One establishment, the waitress asked if she had done anything wrong and if not, why had they not tipped her. What frightened me somewhat was about day 4 of our holiday and I realised we were tipping the equivalent of $70 to $75 kiwi for a 'burger joint' meal - planet hollwood etc.. Add into that breakfast tipping and lunchtime tipping and suddenly we were spending hundreds if not thousands of extra kiwi dollars than planned. Most times if I go out for a family meal in NZ and the service was solid I would leave $10 to $15kiwi…Here I was being asked to leave $120+ a day !!

What drew a line under the issue for me was in one of the self-service shops onsite at Universal / Disney. Walk around the shop picking up massively overpriced / marked up groceries / chips / rolls/ soft drinks to take back to the room. Plop the basket down on the counter. Hand over the visa card and see a tip request on the bottom of the till invoice … I politely enquired what the tip was for. What service had they performed other than to ring through some groceries. They looked dumbfounded, at each other, at the basket of groceries and I suddenly felt like an alien from mars who didn't speak the language. I didn't tip but the whole system and expectation makes you feel like you are doing someone out of a living wage.

dafman

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#1786759 23-May-2017 14:03

Wiggum:

jonathan18:

Wiggum:

Some students are exceptionally cheap already. My oldest girl, 13, does a paper run. She does not make much money, and what she gets is far less than the minimum wage per hour. Some may say that those companies are abusing the system. I look at it another way, its teaching my daughter the value of money, and how to work for it. Should these companies be forced into paying the minimum wage for "these kind of jobs" then "these kind of jobs" will go away.

I'll certainly not be encouraging my kids, when they get to that age, to take on such jobs. To me that's not teaching my kids the value of money, but rather teaching them it's ok to be screwed by The Man. Better that they put that time into something more valuable and rewarding in other ways.

I'd suggest this seems to be an ever-increasing view amongst parents (or indeed kids) as paper and flyer distribution companies become tighter and tighter in what they pay (or increase the amount of work for the same pay), as nearly every single person I see delivering leaflets or the local freebie papers is an adult, I'd imagine in many cases aiming to supplement their benefit. While it'll be unfortunate if these guys lost their job, in principle I'd have no problem with such companies being forced to pay the minimum wage.

Well they are already forced to pay the minimum wage. The law states that there is no minimum wage for employees under the age of 16. Those adults will probably already be getting minimum wage.

I see nothing wrong with the way it is for paper runs etc.. It gets my daughter out of the house once a week, and she is learning how to save and earn an honest living one day. So what if an adult doing the same job gets paid a little more.

Paper runs aside, your 13-year old daughter won't be serving me alcohol across the bar counter. Nor, and with due respect to all children, do I want a teenage school kid serving my dinner at a restaurant - I'd prefer someone with age and relevant experience.

So, for 'these kind of jobs' where adults are employed (and, yes, possibly supporting a family as well) - I fully support the enforcement of a minimum wage.

frankv

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#1786761 23-May-2017 14:04

TimA:

Its a broken economy where the employers cant afford to keep their staff paid and the doors open from selling a product for its RRP.

The same applies to paper runs and aged care and so on too.

If your business model involves screwing your workers over so that you can make a profit, then you should be put out of business.

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gzt

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#1786766 23-May-2017 14:10

USA many places if you don't tip then you are not paying for service. There's always Macdonalds, subway, etc. Increasing tourism is likely to be having an influence on NZ. Tourists from places where tipping is common also tip here. Did Paula Bennett really suggest service wages are lowered or eliminated in NZ to move NZ in the same direction?

MikeAqua

7785 posts

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#1786778 23-May-2017 14:30

gzt: USA many places if you don't tip then you are not paying for service. There's always Macdonalds, subway, etc. Increasing tourism is likely to be having an influence on NZ. Tourists from places where tipping is common also tip here. Did Paula Bennett really suggest service wages are lowered or eliminated in NZ to move NZ in the same direction?

No she isn't talking about lowering wages. Just tipping people.

Mike

frankv

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#1786786 23-May-2017 14:42

On another tack to do with tipping...

Lots of tips are paid in cash (although less so now perhaps in our credit card society). Of course, income tax is supposed to be paid on cash tips. But also, of course, it rarely is.

I must say that I do like the idea that minimum-wage workers receive some of their income tax-free, even if it isn't actually legal.

But I don't think it's a good idea for Paula Bennett to be promoting that goal in *this* fashion.

MikeAqua

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#1786791 23-May-2017 14:49

frankv:

On another tack to do with tipping...

Lots of tips are paid in cash (although less so now perhaps in our credit card society). Of course, income tax is supposed to be paid on cash tips. But also, of course, it rarely is.

I must say that I do like the idea that minimum-wage workers receive some of their income tax-free, even if it isn't actually legal.

But I don't think it's a good idea for Paula Bennett to be promoting that goal in *this* fashion.

Rumour has it reduced lower income tax rates are in the budget.

Mike

MikeAqua

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#1786804 23-May-2017 14:58

When you go to the US you learn to pay in cash to keep things simple ...

Otherwise the routine is: -

Advise wait staff you are ready to settle up

Wait staff bring bill (called a 'check')

Hand over credit card

Wait staff takes card away

Wait staff returns with card and completed docket you enter tip and sign.

Usually you can leave at this point as card has been pre-authorised for the check amount plus estimated gratuity.

By the time all that palaver is over - I'm thirsty again!

One thing I do like about the US - my beer never runs out before another is offered.

You could die of thirst in most NZ restaurants before you notice you are out of beer.

Mike

Stu

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#1786812 23-May-2017 15:05

In a clip I saw this morning, Paula Bennett said she didn't believe tips should be taxed.

Not convinced the IRD would agree with her on that one! (Especially if typing became the norm)

People often mistake me for an adult because of my age.

Keep calm, and carry on posting.

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BlueShift

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#1786817 23-May-2017 15:07

Wiggum:

jonathan18:

Wiggum:

Some students are exceptionally cheap already. My oldest girl, 13, does a paper run. She does not make much money, and what she gets is far less than the minimum wage per hour. Some may say that those companies are abusing the system. I look at it another way, its teaching my daughter the value of money, and how to work for it. Should these companies be forced into paying the minimum wage for "these kind of jobs" then "these kind of jobs" will go away.

I'll certainly not be encouraging my kids, when they get to that age, to take on such jobs. To me that's not teaching my kids the value of money, but rather teaching them it's ok to be screwed by The Man. Better that they put that time into something more valuable and rewarding in other ways.

I'd suggest this seems to be an ever-increasing view amongst parents (or indeed kids) as paper and flyer distribution companies become tighter and tighter in what they pay (or increase the amount of work for the same pay), as nearly every single person I see delivering leaflets or the local freebie papers is an adult, I'd imagine in many cases aiming to supplement their benefit. While it'll be unfortunate if these guys lost their job, in principle I'd have no problem with such companies being forced to pay the minimum wage.

Well they are already forced to pay the minimum wage. The law states that there is no minimum wage for employees under the age of 16. Those adults will probably already be getting minimum wage.

I see nothing wrong with the way it is for paper runs etc.. It gets my daughter out of the house once a week, and she is learning how to save and earn an honest living one day. So what if an adult doing the same job gets paid a little more.

I don't know what deal your daughter is on, but good on her for earning some spending money.

My son signed up as a circular deliverer, if anything he was being paid significantly more than the adults doing the same job. Under 16s aren't required to pay tax, so the government didn't get 19% of his income, his mum and dad picked up the papers and brought them home, saving him the petrol and vehicle expenses that an adult doing the job would have.

All of the people doing the deliveries are employed as contractors, so they don't get paid a minimum wage, regardless of age, they get paid $x for delivering y kilos of pamphlets to their designated area.

For him it worked out to be in the range of $4 an hour, including folding and stacking the circulars, then delivering them to the neighbourhood. Not including my time and fuel collecting them from the agent, and assisting with the folding and delivering. So after a month or two, we encouraged him to give it away as he could make a better hourly rate doing pretty much anything else.

I think the only people who that job is realistically good for is retired or unemployed people who need an excuse to go for a walk.

mattwnz

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#1786823 23-May-2017 15:11

The fact that our deputy PM says we should be tipping is just proving that NZs minimum wage isn't enough, and they have failed to get minimum wages up to a living allowance standard. . Pure and simple. It is also election year so anything that comes out of a politicians mouth at this time of the year has a purpose, and should be taken with a grain of salt.

IMO we don't want tipping in NZ, as it amounts to begging due to the persons normal pay not being sufficient IMO. . Sure, people can chose to tip if they want to, it is a personal choice, but it shouldn't be mandatory. Also really it is just an add on fee, and it is potentially a source of income the IRD doesn't see, and the taxpayer misses out on the tax from that money.

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