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dejadeadnz
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  #2025960 30-May-2018 21:44
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networkn:

 

I think your reasoning behind why people do it is inaccurate.

 

Most people want things to be fair. Without a law degree and exposure to the all the information, it's probably that people are going to conclude that someone who killed 3 people and tried to kill another in cold blood as a preplanned event, after notifying a newspaper, shouldn't be out after only 20 years (and therefore unfair). I'd even go so far as to suggest some WITH a law degree and all the information may draw the same conclusion.

 

Your assertion that those of us without the qualifications understanding shouldn't be entitled to a view or opinion, nor to question the validity of a decision, or be allowed to express said opinions, falls short of the values of the community.

 

 

Let's test out your hypothesis, shall we? And note that I truly give you a lot of credit for not descending to the level of a few uncivilised people who have called for the extra-judicial killing of this guy. But does the following sound like a concern for fairness/justice to you? Bear in mind that this country actually outlawed the death penalty.

 

Bullet between the eye balls would of saved the tax payer a shed load of money!

 

Reintroduce the death penalty, retroactively apply it to anyone with multiple separate convictions for murder, rape, or child sexual abuse. Nothing of value will be lost, and the lefties can't complain it's a miscarriage of justice because they've offended twice.

 

Your arguement is invalid, times change and there should be nothing wrong with saying we got his sentence wrong and reassessing it. If a case can go back to trial i.e. retrial as the Bain case has multiple times for example why can we not reassess someones sentence?

 

In a first world country, I think it's fair to assume that being a responsible adult includes being sufficiently clued about the country's law to know that:

 

     

  1. we have banned the death penalty; and
  2. that we have laws against double jeopardy and arbitrary punishments (imposing a sentence, making someone serve that sentence, and then deciding to execute them in cold blood would, I would like to think, be classed by a fair-minded and intelligent person as being arbitrary, even without knowing that international human rights law clearly establishes that this is so).

 

And I don't think it's too much a stretch to ask that people be able to work out the blatant wrongness of drawing a false equivalence between someone being found not guilty on appeal/re-trial versus the state arbitrarily re-sentencing a person without reference/regard to the fact that the state chose not to exercise a right of appeal. You can cover your ears as much as you'd like but either there's some profound unintelligence at work here or there are people who simply have decided that when it suits them, they can just apply another moral standard altogether. This is plain and simple  ugliness of heart and mind at work. No expertise is required to work this out.

 

 

 

 

 

 




networkn

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  #2026003 30-May-2018 22:13
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Look, a country is made up of lots of different type of people. Lots of backgrounds, experiences, childhoods, etc. I don't support the death penalty per se, but I do occasionally feel that a prison sentence doesn't adequately punish those who have committed truly heinous crimes (think people who take an automatic rifle into a movie theatre or school and kill indiscriminately). I don't necessarily begrudge people their opinion that the death penalty should exist. I think it's a very personal thing. Having said that I think some of the views in this discussion are obviously extreme.

 

I can understand the sentiment that with what it costs to incarcerate people, esp when the chances of those people being reintroduced into society as contributing members is almost certainly zero, skipping that step seems beneficial in some ways (Offset the cost toward healthcare, mental health etc). As I said, I don't support this view myself, but I have some sympathy for the sentiment behind it. 

 

At the end of the day, I do extend some tolerance to those extreme views even if I don't support them. I can understand them and still disagree. 

 

Not everyone in this country will agree with the fact we don't have a death penalty. Just as not everyone will agree with our copyright laws, or our traffic speed limits.

 

I do think you have too high expectations than is reasonable, of people and their understanding of the law and the structure of the judicial system in NZ. I feel you take for granted the knowledge you have. 

 

 

 

I feel this mans punishment was insufficient and him being allowed parole, steps outside of what I think is "fair", regardless of what legal bounds were adhered to. I think his sentence seems impossibly light. I can't see why it wouldn't have been better to say his sentence was 40 years with parole being available after 20.

 

Whilst I do understand the difference between the Bain matter and this one, one thing I do not grasp is why an appeal from a criminal can happen MUCH further down the road, than an appeal on a sentence that was unjust (IMO) in the first place. 

 

 


Fred99
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  #2026007 30-May-2018 22:25
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networkn:

 

Whilst I do understand the difference between the Bain matter and this one, one thing I do not grasp is why an appeal from a criminal can happen MUCH further down the road, than an appeal on a sentence that was unjust (IMO) in the first place. 

 

 

IANAL - but it seems extremely simple to me.  Grounds for appeal based on new evidence coming to light etc indicating that there'd been a miscarriage of justice - not an argument about whether the sentence was too harsh.

 

Bain wasn't arguing that he got too much time - but that he was not guilty.




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  #2026008 30-May-2018 22:27
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Fred99:

 

networkn:

 

Whilst I do understand the difference between the Bain matter and this one, one thing I do not grasp is why an appeal from a criminal can happen MUCH further down the road, than an appeal on a sentence that was unjust (IMO) in the first place. 

 

 

IANAL - but it seems extremely simple to me.  Grounds for appeal based on new evidence coming to light etc indicating that there'd been a miscarriage of justice - not an argument about whether the sentence was too harsh.

 

Bain wasn't arguing that he got too much time - but that he was not guilty.

 

 

Whilst it doesn't meet the legal definition of miscarriage of justice, it seems like one to me, that this man would be "free" after 20 years, for what he did. 

 

 


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  #2026009 30-May-2018 22:30
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Being paroled is not being set free, he will have conditions and restrictions that may or may not be made public. He can be recalled to prison at any time.





Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.


networkn

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  #2026010 30-May-2018 22:31
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MikeB4:

 

being paroled is not being set free, he will have conditions and restrictions that may or may not be made public. he can be recalled to prison at any time.

 

 

Sure, not completely free, but no longer in prison.

 

 


 
 
 

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dejadeadnz
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  #2026011 30-May-2018 22:32
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MikeB4:

 

Being paroled is not being set free, he will have conditions and restrictions that may or may not be made public. He can be recalled to prison at any time.

 

 

Why worry about the facts if it gets in the way of a bit of moral exhibitionism?

 

 

 

 


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  #2026027 30-May-2018 23:23
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The main point of prison is that you lose your freedom. 

 

If you think what you have achieved/undertaken over the last 20 years then you may well have some understanding of what it is like for such a long period of time not to have had freedom.

 

Clearly, with so much pressure on parole boards, they must have thought this guy will not be a threat to the community any more. Most of the time they are correct, but sometimes they are wrong.

 

I have to trust they have done the right thing as they have a whole ton of more facts that I have on this case.


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  #2026342 31-May-2018 16:00
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We need to be more forward looking in this country.

 

All the people wringing their hands and saying "oh well, those were the rules back then" and all the other people talking about retrospectively imposing a harsher sentence are missing the point that the laws that guided sentencing back then still guide sentencing today!!! We, via the democratic process, can/should change the law today to prevent this problem in future.

 

Concurrent sentencing is the root cause of the problem. A majority of people can accept that 20 years is the nominal sentence for murder, but when the same sentence is issued for a crime 3 time worse in magnitude, something doesn't feel quite right because the maths doesn't stack up. If I incur 3 parking tickets at $60ea, my debt to society isn't $60, it's $180. If the debt to society for murder is 20 years, 3 murders equals 60 years, not 20 years.

 

Crime shouldn't be an all-you-can-eat flat priced buffet.

 

 


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  #2026440 31-May-2018 18:50
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I like to rant & rave about quantum physics.





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dejadeadnz
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#2026516 31-May-2018 20:28
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tripper1000:

 

Crime shouldn't be an all-you-can-eat flat priced buffet.

 

 

Whilst that punchline is impressive in its spontaneity and simplicity, the fundamental lack of thinking behind it isn't. If you are going to get rid of concurrent sentencing altogether, be prepared to have a massively bulging prison muster along with a dramatic increase in costs. What would you rather spend your money on? Hundreds of million to build prisons to hold geriatric prisoners or to invest this in our most vulnerable people's future? Oh and let's sentence some drug-addled guy to 50 one month sentences for 50 instances of theft <500 (maximum sentence for this offence being 3 months and let's just generously assume that a judge might sentence a recidivist to 1 month for each offence). Do you seriously think it's proportionate and just to sentence someone to over 8 years of jail for stealing a maximum of $25,000 worth of stuff?

 

Why do people think it wise to constantly get emotional over the most extreme and unusual cases? Do we really want to make serious social policies/law on the basis of what would help to quell a torrent of bloodlust and outrage on the part of a bunch of people who just feel the need to exhibit their moral righteousness for all to see? What does holding someone in jail when he/she is 90-something achieve, apart from giving people's need for revenge and desire to completely deny the humanity of another some unneeded validation? 

 

  


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networkn

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  #2026564 31-May-2018 22:05
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dejadeadnz:

 

tripper1000:

 

Crime shouldn't be an all-you-can-eat flat priced buffet.

 

 

Whilst that punchline is impressive in its spontaneity and simplicity, the fundamental lack of thinking behind it isn't. If you are going to get rid of concurrent sentencing altogether, be prepared to have a massively bulging prison muster along with a dramatic increase in costs. What would you rather spend your money on? Hundreds of million to build prisons to hold geriatric prisoners or to invest this in our most vulnerable people's future? Oh and let's sentence some drug-addled guy to 50 one month sentences for 50 instances of theft <500 (maximum sentence for this offence being 3 months and let's just generously assume that a judge might sentence a recidivist to 1 month for each offence). Do you seriously think it's proportionate and just to sentence someone to over 8 years of jail for stealing a maximum of $25,000 worth of stuff?

 

Why do people think it wise to constantly get emotional over the most extreme and unusual cases? Do we really want to make serious social policies/law on the basis of what would help to quell a torrent of bloodlust and outrage on the part of a bunch of people who just feel the need to exhibit their moral righteousness for all to see? What does holding someone in jail when he/she is 90-something achieve, apart from giving people's need for revenge and desire to completely deny the humanity of another some unneeded validation? 

 

  

 

 

You are going to the exact extremes I have seen you take such a disdainful dislike to when others do it (but to the opposite extreme). You accuse others of being emotional, but you are being so yourself. 

 

It feels like there could be some middle ground. First Degree Murder for example, should be served concurrently IMO. Lesser offenses maybe not so much. First-time offenses, some leniency, ongoing deliberate crime not as much (which I do understand is part of sentencing now).

 

I think 8 years would be a lot for 25K of stolen gear, but I'd also think 3 months would be a lot less than I'd expect. 


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  #2026583 31-May-2018 23:21
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Let’s get real here. We’re not talking about an average murderer, this is one of the very few multiple killers in NZ’s history.

He, at one stage of his life, was a heinous, evil, disgusting creature - because he chose to be. (Stephen Anderson didn’t choose to be, mental illness made his choices for him.) Poulter did one killing, liked it, played the part of true serial killer psyche by taunting police through the media, then went ballistic, living up to his own expectations & delivering upon his own prophecy. Poulter chose this path for himself - & his unfortunate victims. Deliberately. He’s NOT an average killer, he is way, way worse than a one-off murderer.

Yes, after a substantial period of time, subject to rehabilitative efforts & all sorts of psychological examination & with guaranteed community support, we should allow parole to even those convicted of murder.

Except the few who have made such an effort to repulse society that their crimes stand out from the rest - there comes a point where the crime is so nasty that society would prefer to pay to keep these animals locked away forever. There are prisoners in NZ jails who will die inside. William Bell, Graham Burton (a 2-time murderer, not 3) are among them. And so, due to the nature of his insidious crime spree only 20 years ago, should Hayden Poulter also die in prison.

This is not an argument over whether or not parole should be an option for criminals. It’s about Hayden Poulter getting parole - he is one of the very worst offenders in our history & because of that should not ever be granted freedom.




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  #2026596 1-Jun-2018 00:16
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networkn:

dejadeadnz:


tripper1000:


Crime shouldn't be an all-you-can-eat flat priced buffet.



Whilst that punchline is impressive in its spontaneity and simplicity, the fundamental lack of thinking behind it isn't. If you are going to get rid of concurrent sentencing altogether, be prepared to have a massively bulging prison muster along with a dramatic increase in costs. What would you rather spend your money on? Hundreds of million to build prisons to hold geriatric prisoners or to invest this in our most vulnerable people's future? Oh and let's sentence some drug-addled guy to 50 one month sentences for 50 instances of theft <500 (maximum sentence for this offence being 3 months and let's just generously assume that a judge might sentence a recidivist to 1 month for each offence). Do you seriously think it's proportionate and just to sentence someone to over 8 years of jail for stealing a maximum of $25,000 worth of stuff?


Why do people think it wise to constantly get emotional over the most extreme and unusual cases? Do we really want to make serious social policies/law on the basis of what would help to quell a torrent of bloodlust and outrage on the part of a bunch of people who just feel the need to exhibit their moral righteousness for all to see? What does holding someone in jail when he/she is 90-something achieve, apart from giving people's need for revenge and desire to completely deny the humanity of another some unneeded validation? 


  



You are going to the exact extremes I have seen you take such a disdainful dislike to when others do it (but to the opposite extreme). You accuse others of being emotional, but you are being so yourself. 


It feels like there could be some middle ground. First Degree Murder for example, should be served concurrently IMO. Lesser offenses maybe not so much. First-time offenses, some leniency, ongoing deliberate crime not as much (which I do understand is part of sentencing now).


I think 8 years would be a lot for 25K of stolen gear, but I'd also think 3 months would be a lot less than I'd expect. 



NZ doesn’t have degrees of murder.




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  #2029232 4-Jun-2018 14:35
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networkn:

 

myndlyz:

 

networkn:

 

Fred99:

 

He was tried, convicted, and sentenced for crimes committed in 1996/7, under laws applicable at the time.

 

Those laws have changed (Sentencing Act 2002 etc) so there's really no point crying about what appears to be inadequate sentencing in his case.

 

 

I guess you'll be equally blasé if he kills/hurts more people.

 

 

 

 

What exactly are you proposing?

 

Re sentence him again for crimes he's already been sentenced to? 

 

 

No, he is ELIGIBLE for Parole, that doesn't mean he should GET Parole. 

 

 

 



Our country's parole board is  clearly very badly screwed up. 

This is exactly why we had the 3S legalisation (which unfortunately this Labour government is going to be getting rid of) to help remove the parole board from making some of the worst dumbest decisions in releasing people early. 





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