A very sad commentary on our society.

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#3162481 22-Nov-2023 17:05

cddt:

SaltyNZ:

Yes, I'm sure it was more difficult for some others than us. We were both essential workers but were capable of working 100% remotely. We were very fortunate that living 5 people in one garage with a camping shower was the worst we had to deal with.

For me and many people I know, it was a combination of young children and an unreasonable and demanding manager at work which combined to make the situation toxic. Either could have been dealt with on their own, but together they combined to make lockdown an absolute hell. Not so much the first one, where there was a lot of understanding and "kindness", but the final one in 2021 which was much longer - almost four months for Auckland. I quit my job during the final lockdown because of the situation I found myself in, and I was lucky to land on my feet. Others were not so lucky and were in much worse situations than me.

Yes even I think the last Auckland lockdown went on longer than really made sense.

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tweake

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#3162487 22-Nov-2023 17:07

Technofreak:

I'm not so sure they didn't work. Those were the days when if you got caught doing something silly by the police you didn't go home and complain to your parents as you'd get round two. Now the parents make a complaint about their little angels being ill treated by the police.

A lack of decent parenting and respect for authority is an underlying cause of our problems. The time honoured Jesuit saying of "Give us the child till age 7 (or there-a-bouts) and we'll give you the adult", holds as true as it ever did.

A smart tap around the backside was a very quick, timely and effective way to improve ones attitude. The anti smacking law hasn't stopped child abuse but has taken away one very effective tool out of the attitude adjustment toolbox.

i've seen both extremes. mommys little girl who can do no wrong, well until she steals mums car and cashes it. at the other end being kiwi hardman, eg have to work to pay for dinner and room since they where 10 years old. that poor kid was so feral the local ferals couldn't stand him.

the big thing in both cases is lack of parenting.

tweake

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#3162490 22-Nov-2023 17:14

SaltyNZ:

Yes even I think the last Auckland lockdown went on longer than really made sense.

but still compared to other countries, nz had it quite tame. many other places had longer and more of them.

people here do not see what happened elsewhere so it feels like we where hard done by, when reality is we had it pretty easy overall. just like now, many other countries are really struggling much worse than us.

Tinkerisk

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#3162544 22-Nov-2023 17:33

We should not compare ourselves with other countries, people, neighbours, but apply the yardstick of a humanistic world view to ourself.

added:

"The youth of today love luxury, have bad manners and despise authority. They contradict their parents, cross their legs and tyrannise over their teachers. (Socrates, 470-399 BC)

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tweake

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#3162546 22-Nov-2023 17:47

Tinkerisk:

We should not compare ourselves with other countries, people, neighbours, but apply the yardstick of a humanistic world view to ourself.

the problem with that is your trying to compare to something that doesn't exist, its made up so it can be anything and is often so unreachable that it does more harm than good.

where as comparing to other people/countries is real and is achievable. incremental improvements by comparing it to something else and making it better.

Tinkerisk

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#3162552 22-Nov-2023 18:05

tweake:

Tinkerisk:

We should not compare ourselves with other countries, people, neighbours, but apply the yardstick of a humanistic world view to ourself.

… that doesn't exist, its made up so it can be anything and is often so unreachable that it does more harm than good.

If you define it for yourself, it exists. If it exists for you, live it. You cannot criticise others for what you do not exemplify for them.

gzt

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#3162585 22-Nov-2023 21:07

sen8or: Ofcourse there was crime, but there were consequences too.

People were local. Crime was local. Policing was local. All those things have changed. The challenges and required solutions are very different today.

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Technofreak

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#3162587 22-Nov-2023 21:16

gzt:
sen8or: Ofcourse there was crime, but there were consequences too.

People were local. Crime was local. Policing was local. All those things have changed. The challenges and required solutions are very different today.

Some of the solutions are very much the same today as in yesteryear. Instill an adequate level of respect for other people and other peoples possessions and have consesquences that match the crime for those that choose not to comply.

Cases in point, people don't steal and trash cars, nor carry out ram raids then place videos of said ram raid on Tik Tok because they are under priviledged or hungry.

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sen8or

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#3162652 23-Nov-2023 08:01

gzt:
sen8or: Ofcourse there was crime, but there were consequences too.

People were local. Crime was local. Policing was local. All those things have changed. The challenges and required solutions are very different today.

Thats a bit of a cop-out. The "challenges" have been created because society has gotten soft on discipline. We look for excuses as to why someone is the way they are, then allow the behavior to go all but unpunished on account of their past. Does their past reduce the impact of the crime on the victim or society? Not one little bit, yet here we are.

We are nearly at the point where the lunatics are running the asylum

GV27

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#3162666 23-Nov-2023 08:55

tweake:

but still compared to other countries, nz had it quite tame. many other places had longer and more of them.

people here do not see what happened elsewhere so it feels like we where hard done by, when reality is we had it pretty easy overall. just like now, many other countries are really struggling much worse than us.

What happens in other countries doesn't matter. It's not relevant to what happened in this one. That's what people living here have to deal with.

"It was worse somewhere else so let's not contemplate whether there's a serious underlying problem" is a recipe for a race to the bottom.

Rikkitic

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#3162672 23-Nov-2023 09:09

GV27:

What happens in other countries doesn't matter. It's not relevant to what happened in this one. That's what people living here have to deal with.

"It was worse somewhere else so let's not contemplate whether there's a serious underlying problem" is a recipe for a race to the bottom.

We live in an interconnected world. What happens internationally does affect us. The price of fuel, for example. Everything overseas is relevant to us.

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GV27

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#3162761 23-Nov-2023 11:26

Rikkitic:

We live in an interconnected world. What happens internationally does affect us. The price of fuel, for example. Everything overseas is relevant to us.

I can only speak for myself but "Thankfully I'm not a war orphan in some western hegemonic quagmire" was not front of mind when I was working my way through lockdown, in the place where I live, with the problems that presented that I had to deal with. And that was pretty difficult, all things considered. The experience of other countries mattered not one iota in helping me get through the problems I actually had in front of me to deal with.

"It could be worse" doesn't actually resolve or address the problems people are dealing with in the here and now in front of them. It just trivialises them and shows you're not interested in a solution or even really prepared to admit a problem or hardship exists.

This is why the "People in NZ don't understand real poverty because they're not starving in a Middle Eastern refugee camp - that's real poverty" argument is equally rubbish - it goes both ways in that regard. What is happening somewhere else doesn't change the reality of what people are dealing with in front of them here and now.

Rikkitic

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#3162901 23-Nov-2023 16:27

GV27:

I can only speak for myself but "Thankfully I'm not a war orphan in some western hegemonic quagmire" was not front of mind when I was working my way through lockdown, in the place where I live, with the problems that presented that I had to deal with. And that was pretty difficult, all things considered. The experience of other countries mattered not one iota in helping me get through the problems I actually had in front of me to deal with.

"It could be worse" doesn't actually resolve or address the problems people are dealing with in the here and now in front of them. It just trivialises them and shows you're not interested in a solution or even really prepared to admit a problem or hardship exists.

This is why the "People in NZ don't understand real poverty because they're not starving in a Middle Eastern refugee camp - that's real poverty" argument is equally rubbish - it goes both ways in that regard. What is happening somewhere else doesn't change the reality of what people are dealing with in front of them here and now.

I'm not arguing with that, just pointing out that it is not correct to say we are not affected by what happens elsewhere. Even if it doesn't hit us directly, it does indirectly, through higher prices, travel restrictions, irritating anti-money laundering laws, whatever else you want to choose.

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tweake

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#3162922 23-Nov-2023 16:46

GV27:

"It could be worse" doesn't actually resolve or address the problems people are dealing with in the here and now in front of them. It just trivialises them

its doesn't trivialize it at all, it simply puts it into perspective. look outside your 3ft world, there no need to hide under a rock or attack people. these problems are not new and they will be overcome just like last time and the time before, as well as next time and the time after that.

other people have had much worse and they got through it, just like you will get through this.

Handle9

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#3162974 23-Nov-2023 17:29

sen8or:
gzt:
People were local. Crime was local. Policing was local. All those things have changed. The challenges and required solutions are very different today.

Thats a bit of a cop-out. The "challenges" have been created because society has gotten soft on discipline. We look for excuses as to why someone is the way they are, then allow the behavior to go all but unpunished on account of their past. Does their past reduce the impact of the crime on the victim or society? Not one little bit, yet here we are.

We are nearly at the point where the lunatics are running the asylum

The focus on punishment ignores the underlying reasons that large parts of society are disaffected.

When I was growing up in the 1980s it was quite possible for a normal working family with basic but necessary jobs to have a decent life. They could work in an unskilled job, own their own modest house and have a decent prospects of a comfortable, if basic, life.

That’s long gone in Auckland and most larger cities.

I think Kirk’s vision of what people need is still as applicable today as it ever was. People need “someone to love, somewhere to live, somewhere to work, and something to hope for”. The final one has gone for a lot of people in society and this is the consequence of it.

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